The Filioque Done Right

This is a safe harbor for inquirers and catechumen to ask questions and share their journey into Holy Orthodoxy. Please be kind to our newcomers and warmly welcome them. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
sedevacantist
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri 12 February 2016 5:24 pm
Jurisdiction: Traditional Catholic

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by sedevacantist »

From St Thomas Aquinas, doctor of the Church

“Second, because many things which sound well enough in Greek do not perhaps, sound well in Latin. Hence, Latins and Greeks professing the same faith do so using different words. For among the Greeks it is said, correctly, and in a Catholic way, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three hypostases. Footnote But with the Latins it does not sound right to say that there are three substantiae, even though on a purely verbal basis the term hypostasis in Greek means the same as the term substantia in Latin. The fact is, substantia in Latin is more frequently used to signify essence. And both we and the Greeks hold that in God there is but one essence. So where the Greeks speak of three hypostases, we Latins speak of three personae, as Augustine in the seventh book on the Trinity Footnote also teaches. And, doubtless, there are many similar instances.

It is, therefore, the task of the good translator, when translating material dealing with the Catholic faith, to preserve the meaning, but to adapt the mode of expression so that it is in harmony with the idiom of the language into which he is translating. For obviously, when anything spoken in a literary fashion in Latin is explained in common parlance, the explanation will be inept if it is simply word for word. All the more so, when anything expressed in one language is translated merely word for word into another, it will be no surprise if perplexity concerning the meaning of the original sometimes occurs.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by Maria »

I am moving this thread into the Inquiring into Orthodoxy forum.

And yes, while I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, the filioque was an obstacle to me until I joined the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church. They explained that even though they were in communion with Rome, they did not have to say the filioque in the Creed.

Something funny happened along the way. My husband and I had been faithfully attending the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church from August 1, 1993 until December 1993. In fact, I was almost a daily attendant at the Divine Liturgy whenever they had a weekday Liturgy, which was very often. Then we visited the local Roman Catholic Church one last time on Dec. 8. When we returned the next day on Dec. 9, the Melkite Bishop was serving, and I made a terrible blunder.

We recited the Nicene Creed, and immediately after we said, "And in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father," there was a breath pause, and during that breath pause, I blurted out very clearly, "AND THE SON" [filioque clause]. My face turned a brilliant red as everyone in the congregation, including the Melkite Bishop looked at me in consternation. I hung my face in shame.

Then after the Divine Liturgy, when the Bishop was passing out the Antidoron, I kissed his hand, and he said to me, "Why? Please see me in the rectory afterwards." All I remember was that my legs were numb, and that I had to force myself to walk across the driveway to the rectory. It seemed like I was walking in slow motion. After that correction, I recited the Nicene Creed about three times a day so that I would not make that mistake again.

  • + + + +

The Orthodox version of the Nicene Creed is the one established by the Ecumenical Council. The filioque addition was added to the Nicene Creed first by the Toledo Council in Spain (a local council in the 6th century) to combat the Arian Heresy.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Archimandrit Nilos
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue 25 April 2006 8:34 am

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by Archimandrit Nilos »

Maria, you were also a Melkite (Roman Catholic) for a time ?

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by Maria »

Archimandrit Nilos wrote:

Maria, you were also a Melkite (Roman Catholic) for a time ?

Yes, I was for about two years and a half, but during that time, I was studying Orthodoxy.

Some of my ancestors were Maronite Catholics from France (Lebanese who had settled in Normandie to grow grapes and press wine).

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

sedevacantist
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri 12 February 2016 5:24 pm
Jurisdiction: Traditional Catholic

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by sedevacantist »

It's not too late to correct your ways, you don't have the true faith, there is no salvation outside the catholic church

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by Barbara »

Welcome, sedevacantist !

Maria, that's great about your ancestors. Do you have any relatives still there, en Normandie ?

User avatar
Luke
Member
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun 17 January 2016 10:25 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Post by Luke »

"And we, say that the addition to the Symbol was made iniquitously and illegally and against the fathers; they affirm that it is lawful and blessed . . ." -- St. Mark of Ephesus.

Post Reply