The Filioque Done Right

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sedevacantist
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The Filioque Done Right

Postby sedevacantist » Mon 11 September 2017 2:17 pm

Maria wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:you didn't answer the quote, in your pride you believe you know more than the church fathers, the creed mentions a truth, the spirit proceeds from the father, but it doesn't state to the effect the spirit doesn't proceed from the son..staggering how you don't care more for your soul and have separated from the Church of Christ..the Church of St Francis of Assisi


Dear Sedevacantist,

Please do not resort to the use of an ad hominem, which I have bolded in your quote above.
Avoiding the use of you and your will help prevent personal attacks.

This is an preliminary warning. Any further offenses will result in warnings or even bannings.

In Christ,
Maria
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Dear Maria

is the following that was written to me an ad hominem?

"Your lack of understanding of basic Tradition and ecclessiology is staggering for one who purports to instruct others. Of course, it is not surprising to see one who follows the schismatic Romans to be far removed from understanding the Church."

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Maria
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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Maria » Mon 11 September 2017 8:07 pm

sedevacantist wrote:
Maria wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:you didn't answer the quote, in your pride you believe you know more than the church fathers, the creed mentions a truth, the spirit proceeds from the father, but it doesn't state to the effect the spirit doesn't proceed from the son..staggering how you don't care more for your soul and have separated from the Church of Christ..the Church of St Francis of Assisi


Dear Sedevacantist,

Please do not resort to the use of an ad hominem, which I have bolded in your quote above.
Avoiding the use of you and your will help prevent personal attacks.

This is an preliminary warning. Any further offenses will result in warnings or even bannings.

In Christ,
Maria
Administrator

Dear Maria

is the following that was written to me an ad hominem?

"Your lack of understanding of basic Tradition and ecclessiology is staggering for one who purports to instruct others. Of course, it is not surprising to see one who follows the schismatic Romans to be far removed from understanding the Church."


No, sedevacantist, the immediate quote above is not considered an ad hominem, but it is the truth as you have shown a lack of knowledge of the Church Fathers, basic Church Tradition, and ecclesiology.
On the contrary, your previous response quoted above attacks that person of being proud, and while we all suffer from pride, you have exaggerated the accusation by accusing him of believing that he knows more than the Church Fathers, which is a falsehood.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

sedevacantist
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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby sedevacantist » Mon 11 September 2017 8:30 pm

Maria wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:
Maria wrote:
Dear Sedevacantist,

Please do not resort to the use of an ad hominem, which I have bolded in your quote above.
Avoiding the use of you and your will help prevent personal attacks.

This is an preliminary warning. Any further offenses will result in warnings or even bannings.

In Christ,
Maria
Administrator

Dear Maria

is the following that was written to me an ad hominem?

"Your lack of understanding of basic Tradition and ecclessiology is staggering for one who purports to instruct others. Of course, it is not surprising to see one who follows the schismatic Romans to be far removed from understanding the Church."


No, sedevacantist, the immediate quote above is not considered an ad hominem, but it is the truth as you have shown a lack of knowledge of the Church Fathers, basic Church Tradition, and ecclesiology.
On the contrary, your previous response quoted above attacks that person of being proud, and while we all suffer from pride, you have exaggerated the accusation by accusing him of believing that he knows more than the Church Fathers, which is a falsehood.


ironic that you accuse me of having a lack of knowledge of the church fathers when I'm the one providing the quotes of the fathers..like this one...

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

which I still haven't received a response

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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Maria » Mon 11 September 2017 8:44 pm

sedevacantist wrote:
Maria wrote:
sedevacantist wrote: Dear Maria

...

ironic that you accuse me of having a lack of knowledge of the church fathers when I'm the one providing the quotes of the fathers..like this one...

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

which I still haven't received a response


Dear Sedevacantist,
It was previously mentioned that St. Ambrose is discussing the Temporal Procession of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and at our Chrismation.
Remember that Christ said that He and the Father would send down the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That was a Temporal Procession.

However, the Eternal Procession of the Holy Spirit is from the Father alone, just as the Son is Eternally begotten of the Father alone.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Bishop_Irineos » Mon 11 September 2017 9:24 pm

Maria,

Lord have mercy. This kind of proselytizing and ignorance of ecclesiology is exactly what I am talking about. The CREED and SCRIPTURE answer the proof-texted quote, but he can't accept that neither agree with eternal procession from the son. Instead he repeats the canard of not being answered when in fact he has been answered over and over. I rather suspect his formation as a Roman Catholic is poor as well, as even the RC's understand that individual church fathers do not override Ecumenical Councils or Holy Scripture.

God grant you patience. I have blocked all his nonsense, but I can see it when it gets quoted by others.

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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby sedevacantist » Tue 12 September 2017 4:00 pm

d9popov wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:
d9popov wrote:


Dear Sedevantist,

In short: there is a difference between eternal procession and temporal procession. When Orthodox Fathers state that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," they are speaking about temporal procession, not eternal procession. The Creed is speaking about eternal procession, so "and the Son" is not appropriate in the Creed. The ancient patristic consensus (Rome and all of the East) was to NOT have the Filioque in the Creed. The East remained faithful to that ancient patristic consensus, whereas the West perverted the Catholic consensus and fell away from the Catholic Church. If you do not clearly understand the difference between eternal and temporal procession, then you will misunderstand the entire issue. Please read the following carefully:


SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AND THE COUNCIL OF 1351 IN CONSTANTINOPLE (THE "NINTH ECUMENICAL" COUNCIL)
[The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father. He is co-beginningless with the Father and the Son as being outside time, but not without beginning, as Himself also having the Father as root, source, and cause, not as generated, but as proceeding; for He also came forth from the Father before all ages immutably and impassibly, not by generation, but by procession, being indivisible from the Father and the Son, as proceeding from the Father and resting in the Son, having union without confusion and division without division. He is God and is Himself from God, not one thing insofar as He is God, but another insofar as He is the Paraclete; He is the self-subsistent Spirit, proceeding from the Father and sent, that is manifested, through the Son, the cause of all that came into being, since They were perfected in Him; the same equal in honor with both the Father and the Son, without ingenerateness and generation. He was sent from the Son to His own disciples, that is, He was manifested. For how otherwise would He Who is not separated from Him be sent by Him? How otherwise, pray tell, would He come Who is everywhere? Wherefore, He is sent not only from the Son, but also from the Father and through the Son; and He comes from Himself when He is being manifested. For the sending, that is the manifestation, of the Spirit is a common action. He is manifested, not according to essence, for no one has ever either seen or declared the nature of God, but according to the grace, power, and energy that is common to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For the hypostasis of each, and whatever belongs to it, is peculiar to each of these. Not only is the super-essential Essence, which is entirely nameless, inexpressible, and incapable of participation, since it is above every name, expression, and participation, common to Them all, but also the grace, the power, the energy, the radiance, the kingdom, and the incorruption, and in general everything according to which God communicates and is united by grace with both holy angels and holy men. Departing from His simplicity neither on account of the distinction and difference of the hypostases, nor on account of the distinction and variety of powers and energies, we thus have one all-powerful God in one Deity [θεότης, theótēs]. For neither from perfect hypostases, could there ever come about any composition, nor could what is potential, because it has power or powers, ever truly be called composite by reason of potentiality itself.


Dear D9, if what you say is correct about temporal procession then can you provide church fathers speaking about this difference?
so for example the following quote, if you say St Cyril is speaking of temporal procession instead of eternal , can you provide proof?

Cyril of Alexandria
"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and
Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy
Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

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Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Maria » Tue 12 September 2017 4:18 pm

sedevacantist wrote:
d9popov wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:


Dear Sedevantist,

In short: there is a difference between eternal procession and temporal procession. When Orthodox Fathers state that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," they are speaking about temporal procession, not eternal procession. The Creed is speaking about eternal procession, so "and the Son" is not appropriate in the Creed. The ancient patristic consensus (Rome and all of the East) was to NOT have the Filioque in the Creed. The East remained faithful to that ancient patristic consensus, whereas the West perverted the Catholic consensus and fell away from the Catholic Church. If you do not clearly understand the difference between eternal and temporal procession, then you will misunderstand the entire issue. Please read the following carefully:


SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AND THE COUNCIL OF 1351 IN CONSTANTINOPLE (THE "NINTH ECUMENICAL" COUNCIL)
[The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father. He is co-beginningless with the Father and the Son as being outside time, but not without beginning, as Himself also having the Father as root, source, and cause, not as generated, but as proceeding; for He also came forth from the Father before all ages immutably and impassibly, not by generation, but by procession, being indivisible from the Father and the Son, as proceeding from the Father and resting in the Son, having union without confusion and division without division. He is God and is Himself from God, not one thing insofar as He is God, but another insofar as He is the Paraclete; He is the self-subsistent Spirit, proceeding from the Father and sent, that is manifested, through the Son, the cause of all that came into being, since They were perfected in Him; the same equal in honor with both the Father and the Son, without ingenerateness and generation. He was sent from the Son to His own disciples, that is, He was manifested. For how otherwise would He Who is not separated from Him be sent by Him? How otherwise, pray tell, would He come Who is everywhere? Wherefore, He is sent not only from the Son, but also from the Father and through the Son; and He comes from Himself when He is being manifested. For the sending, that is the manifestation, of the Spirit is a common action. He is manifested, not according to essence, for no one has ever either seen or declared the nature of God, but according to the grace, power, and energy that is common to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For the hypostasis of each, and whatever belongs to it, is peculiar to each of these. Not only is the super-essential Essence, which is entirely nameless, inexpressible, and incapable of participation, since it is above every name, expression, and participation, common to Them all, but also the grace, the power, the energy, the radiance, the kingdom, and the incorruption, and in general everything according to which God communicates and is united by grace with both holy angels and holy men. Departing from His simplicity neither on account of the distinction and difference of the hypostases, nor on account of the distinction and variety of powers and energies, we thus have one all-powerful God in one Deity [θεότης, theótēs]. For neither from perfect hypostases, could there ever come about any composition, nor could what is potential, because it has power or powers, ever truly be called composite by reason of potentiality itself.


Dear D9, if what you say is correct about temporal procession then can you provide church fathers speaking about this difference?
so for example the following quote, if you say St Cyril is speaking of temporal procession instead of eternal , can you provide proof?

Cyril of Alexandria
"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and
Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy
Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).


Dear Sedevacantist,

Remember that I was a "cradle Catholic" who attended Dominican University in San Rafael and Holy Names University in Oakland, California, where I studied theology every semester that I attended those two colleges under Dominican Friars.

If you read carefully, you will see that Saint Cyril of Alexandria clearly states, "Since the Holy Spirit when He is in us effects our being conformed to God." This clause definitely refers to the life of the Holy Spirit within us, which is a temporal procession. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us (temporal procession) at our Baptism and Holy Chrismation by the power of the Priest in the Holy Sacraments (Holy Mysteries). It is the Holy Spirit Who is the Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, and the Giver of Life, Who is everywhere present and fillest all things. It is the Holy Spirit Who initiates our very Life in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit Who purifies, illuminates, and sanctifies us. Without Him, we cannot enter Paradise.

And this is also why "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" will not be forgiven in this life nor in the next.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.


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