Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

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Jean-Serge
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Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Jean-Serge »

There is denim and denim... You can be very smart in denim too, with a jacket and shirt for men for instance. Moreover, what is casual and not changes with time. It is sometimes delicate to say things to people who have unconvenient outfits. Correction must be discrete, with love, not humiliating, done by the right person and at the right time etc. Some people are really bad at correction. More generally speaking, even among the true orthodox, there are many formal problems that diminish the credibility of the stance because these are exactly the things that can be seen in world orthodoxy. I think about :

  • pews and chair (typically Greek)
  • unveiled ladies
  • westernized icons
  • westernized music (typically Russian)

Maybe other things... It is difficult to denounce the modernism of world orthodoxy having succumbed in diverse ways in the same mistakes

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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Maria
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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by Maria »

Jean-Serge wrote:

There is denim and denim... You can be very smart in denim too, with a jacket and shirt for men for instance. Moreover, what is casual and not changes with time. It is sometimes delicate to say things to people who have unconvenient outfits. Correction must be discrete, with love, not humiliating, done by the right person and at the right time etc. Some people are really bad at correction. More generally speaking, even among the true orthodox, there are many formal problems that diminish the credibility of the stance because these are exactly the things that can be seen in world orthodoxy. I think about :

  • pews and chair (typically Greek)
  • unveiled ladies
  • westernized icons
  • westernized music (typically Russian)

Maybe other things... It is difficult to denounce the modernism of world orthodoxy having succumbed in diverse ways in the same mistakes

Most people should not be correcting others for their lack of dress. In fact, to correct people could be a sin as
the outfit they are wearing could well be their only one and their best one if they are poor.

There are even some Orthodox Christian monks who wear a monastic garb made of denim or who wear patched denim. Beggars cannot be picky.

Yiayias who tell women to wear veils before entering the Church often humiliate these women.
Yet, people who do not wear a veil often endure rude rubbernecked people.
Honestly, I do not know what is worse: the yiayias or the rubbernecked people.
We should be focusing on God, not on what our neighbor is wearing or not wearing.

I only mentioned the adult chaperones because they obviously have the means to afford modest dress, but instead have chosen to wear very expensive modern immodest fashions. Yes, denim can be extremely expensive, especially brand labels. Thus, knowingly or unknowingly, these ladies can give bad example and scandalize others.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by Jean-Serge »

In any way, in traditional places, Georgia, Romania, Russia, everyone knows you're supposed to wear a veil, so even if you don't, seeing you're the only person unveiled should make you realize this. And if you don't, people will say this to you, which I find quite positive as long as it is done discretely. Actually, the best way is to post on the website of the church or at the entrance the general rules. In Italy, you can't enter a church with skirt above the knee, even as a visitor. The problem in orthodoxy is the lack of will to enforce rules... for the sake of love...

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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by Maria »

Jean-Serge wrote:

In any way, in traditional places, Georgia, Romania, Russia, everyone knows you're supposed to wear a veil, so even if you don't, seeing you're the only person unveiled should make you realize this. And if you don't, people will say this to you, which I find quite positive as long as it is done discretely. Actually, the best way is to post on the website of the church or at the entrance the general rules. In Italy, you can't enter a church with skirt above the knee, even as a visitor. The problem in orthodoxy is the lack of will to enforce rules... for the sake of love...

Yes, here in the USA and in Canada, often it is the Presbytera or Matuska who would rather have the youth come to the parish no matter how immodestly they are dressed. The excuse is given that these young teenage girls are not being given a good example by their mothers who buy them these short skirts and revealing clothes. The hope is that these girls will change their style by the good example set around them. However, I have seen the opposite. The good teens are often corrupted by the wild ones.

Mod Note: I have edited the title of this thread to include immodest clothing

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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by Jean-Serge »

As a matter of fact, the old ones are necessarily more traditional in particular in the Western world. I noticed the fact when my old Georgian parish moved from the Serbian church to ROCIE. My former Georgian parish then was mostly composed of young people, mostly students whereas the ROCIE parish was an old parish made up with a large majority of old people above 50-60. As I said elsewhere, Georgia being a place quite traditional, the young ladies from there were all veiled (anyway, the Georgian priest would have not tolerated any unveiled lady) and at the left side of the church while the majority of Russian old ladies (even the matushka) seemed to have forgotten about the veil... Later, I noticed that the good example of the veil spread to some Russian ladies...without anything being said I think. But some remained reluctant to it and one of them even protested when she was told to wear a veil while confessing...

Another anecdote I have is that once came a Georgian girl that seemed not to know what to wear at church. The dress was not specially short but a sort of asymmetric thing short in a side, long in another and quite funny finally. She was later told that this was not the preferred dress, and she was not offended. I guess that at this type, the fact of being a parish with a low average age made things easier because correction would come not from these old boring ladies but from people from the same age and generation.

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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by jgress »

I agree with Jean-Serge that it's not a good thing if we're afraid to rebuke one another. The thing is to do it in "love", and for this I think one has to establish some kind of rapport. If you're rebuking a stranger who is not dressed properly, for example, try the smiling, gentle reminder, rather than the frowning scold. What Jean-Serge says about taking rebukes differently from your peers also makes a lot of sense. It's a healthy sign when young people can encourage each other to respect Tradition.

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Re: Modest versus Immodest Clothing. What to Wear to Church?

Post by Maria »

What constitutes modest clothing in church or even that worn to stores and public places?

  • Clothing that is respectful and clean, humble, and becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

    Clothing that does not reveal the body, such as low cut blouses, sleeveless blouses or muscle T-shirts, short skirts above the knees, or short shorts.

    Clothing that does not send a message: For example, a T-shirt with an advertisement, cartoon, or political message is not appropriate. Wearing rainbow colors is also not appropriate as that may show support of the Rainbow Coalition. Designer jeans with holes or slashes in the fabric are also not appropriate.

    Clothing that does not draw attention. For example, a Halloween costume worn to church in anticipation of the costume party afterwards.

    Clothing that is not extremely fitted to reveal the figure, and again, draw attention. For example. tights and leggings worn without a modest length skirt to cover them.

    Clothing that is not too bright. For example, a bright red dress on Holy Friday would stand out because most people would be wearing somber blues, browns, and blacks.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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