Immaculate Conception dogma

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Extranjero
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Extranjero » Sat 13 January 2018 12:03 pm

Thank you very much Maria and Xenondrum. Thanks for the pdf and the many references. I take note of all you said. Now just a few comments about Catholicism because is something which involves my feellings:

I agree with the critical comments from xenondrum. As I am old (60 years), I have seen the changes in the Catholicism happening in front of my face. Probably the corruption started before Vatican II, I don't know, but sure since that Concilie to our days the sacred sens of the rituals and prayers become weak and weak and finally seem to be lost (and I don't want to say nothing now about certain tendencies such as the "liberation theology" and other distortions that appeared after the council).

Xenondrum mentioned Orthodox icons, and Maria quoted the sacred chant... By contrast, I have seen Catholic churches decorated in a hyper modernist way that does not communicates anything sacred (sculptures showing shocking deformities, etc.). And I have listen to prayers chanted to the rythm of rock&pop melodies. As you said: as we pray we believe.

In this sens I agree in part with Lefebvre and others like him who want to return to "pre conciliar" times. But in other hand, I do not agree with them. Because when you refuse the changes just reacting, just going to the opposite way, the phariseeism is waiting for you in the next corner...

This is a very delicate thing. So I turned to Orthodox Church looking for a different path. A path far of both dangers: modernism corruption and phariseeism.

As for ecumenism, if it means "all the roads lead to God", of course I do not accept it. Because a basic learning of a real spirituality is that Devil and Evil exist. It does not matter here if one think on Devil as an individual being or on Evil as a cosmic state or a lack of love, or whatever, but it exist. Then not all what is connected with the "invisible" world is pure and good. In this sense some visions could be not only false but also devil. And the same is true for the rites and prayers.

Perhaps that seems old fashion but for me is nearest the truth than the "sweet" and indiscriminate ecumenism...

But if ecumenism means be open to others and try to see their hearts more than their formal belongings, so I agree with it. All of us were created as image and likeness, so an approach is allways possible.

Anyway, I am glad to have found this forum. I'll keep arround.

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Justice
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Justice » Sat 13 January 2018 10:46 pm

Welcome to Ecafe!

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Barbara
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Barbara » Sun 14 January 2018 4:24 am

Welcome, also, Extranjero ! Where are you from ? Please feel free to continue to speak your thoughts. All can learn.
By the way, that was cute : orthodoxian people !

Xenondrum, I believe that that is a scapular, a sacramental - not a priestly vestment - in the Our Lady of Garabandal picture.
The 2nd image is known as the "Madonna of the Poor". Notice that there is no halo at all.
Nice to hear you contributing after some time. Hope your health is back and in the best of shape.

Maria, so the OCA glorified that Fr Siluan of Mt Athos ? Not the MP ? I didn't realize that it was only the OCA. I wonder what the MP's position is on him. Do you have any idea ? The same ?

To me, he is WAY WAY OVERRATED. He seems to be actively promoted in such quarters today, which makes him suspicious right there. Like Luke of Simferopol, Matrona of Moscow, etc. Watch out for these names, Extranjero : they are -- in my opinion -- out of the fake-saint-factory-mill. But as a new inquirer, you couldn't know the full story behind these either imposters or over-celebrated 'holy people'. That's why it's excellent that you came to this site, where you'll hear deeper analysis than glossy World Orthodox propaganda sites and forums.

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Sun 14 January 2018 6:06 am

Barbara wrote:Welcome, also, Extranjero ! Where are you from ? Please feel free to continue to speak your thoughts. All can learn.
By the way, that was cute : orthodoxian people !

Xenondrum, I believe that that is a scapular, a sacramental - not a priestly vestment - in the Our Lady of Garabandal picture.
The 2nd image is known as the "Madonna of the Poor". Notice that there is no halo at all.
Nice to hear you contributing after some time. Hope your health is back and in the best of shape.

Maria, so the OCA glorified that Fr Siluan of Mt Athos ? Not the MP ? I didn't realize that it was only the OCA. I wonder what the MP's position is on him. Do you have any idea ? The same ?

To me, he is WAY WAY OVERRATED. He seems to be actively promoted in such quarters today, which makes him suspicious right there. Like Luke of Simferopol, Matrona of Moscow, etc. Watch out for these names, Extranjero : they are -- in my opinion -- out of the fake-saint-factory-mill. But as a new inquirer, you couldn't know the full story behind these either imposters or over-celebrated 'holy people'. That's why it's excellent that you came to this site, where you'll hear deeper analysis than glossy World Orthodox propaganda sites and forums.


Barbara, please cite a reference regarding that "scapular."

Scapulars are worn over the neck and scapular bone. That is precisely why they
are called scapulars. This garment, worn around the wrist of the lady, looks more like
a priestly vestment, and not anything resembling a scapular, which would be worn
around the neck.

Furthermore, have not a least 100 women become ordained as women-priests within
the Catholic Church. Certainly, they were excommunicated, but the movement
for women-priests is growing.

And why does the lady apparition of Garabandal not wear a veil? In the biblical times,
not wearing a veil would be a sign of a prostitute.Yes, my husband and I question the
entire apparition of Garabandal as a Modernist ploy.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Sun 14 January 2018 6:32 am

Estranjero,

We Orthodox honor the Panagia as the All-holy and Immaculate One,
and we have had this tradition from Apostolic times.

Why is there this urgency among the Roman Catholic Church to dogmatize
everything and to develop new dogmas? Our Lord taught the Apostles everything
we need for our salvation. In fact, this is the very definition of Catholicism that
Christ our God has taught the unchanging faith to the Apostles once and for
all times.

There is no need for any new dogmas.

This has been the serious problem with Roman Catholicism since 800 A.D.,
and this modernist development of dogma and development of tradition is
what ultimately led to the Great Schism of 1054 A.D.

I repeat: We already have all the doctrines necessary for salvation, if only
we would pray, fast, and repent.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Extranjero » Sun 14 January 2018 8:40 am

Pleased to meet you Justice and Barbara.

Welcome, also, Extranjero ! Where are you from ?


I live in Japan, Barbara, but I am argentinian. That's why I chose my nick: "Extranjero" in spanish means "foreigner". Actually there are many Orthodox websites in my language but I didn't find an active forum like this. So, if you can bear my bad english I would like keep here :D

[
Why is there this urgency among the Roman Catholic Church to dogmatize
everything and to develop new dogmas? Our Lord taught the Apostles everything
we need for our salvation. In fact, this is the very definition of Catholicism that
Christ our God has taught the unchanging faith to the Apostles once and for
all times.
There is no need for any new dogmas.


I agree, Maria. At least the late dogmas seem be established without a cleary reason. I mean since there is not a new revelation we do not need new dogmas except if is for to teach something clearer than in the past, or correct some heresy.

Recently, as I was concerned about Immaculate Conception I was thinking in the Catherina Laboure vision and her medal. Some people says that the pressure of the many miracles of the medal, pushed the Pope to declare the dogma. Of course the idea of Immaculate is already existed before Catherina, but was matter of controversies. For example some great theologians like Saint Bernard and Saint Thomas refused the dogma because saw it as something innecesary.

By the way, in the lastest visions appeared in the Catholic world I see some tendence: a subtle replace of Jesus for his Mother. Is not obvious but is clear if you examine the visions and the ideas and images asociated. For example in the Lady of all Nation (a devotion started in Holande from a vision) the Virgin is overlapping the cross. And the project asociated to this is a new dogma: Mary as co-redeemer (see the image below).


Image

Here again, the point is not if Holy Mary is or not co-redeemer, because from the popular piety and personal faith one can asumme it and is not necessarily wrong, but do we need a new dogma?

As you said Maria, we have all we need, the problem is our lack of faith.

Finally, because I feel a bit unconfortable when I am so critical with the Catholic Church -even if think they are wrong in many aspects- I do not want leave this post without say: I am just a confuse and arrogant man but, despite that, I am seeking the truth...

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Sun 14 January 2018 10:41 pm

Maria wrote:There is no need for any new dogmas.


Extranjero wrote:I agree, Maria. At least the late dogmas seem be established without a cleary reason. I mean since there is not a new revelation we do not need new dogmas except if is for to teach something clearer than in the past, or correct some heresy. ...

By the way, in the lastest visions appeared in the Catholic world I see some tendence: a subtle replace of Jesus for his Mother. Is not obvious but is clear if you examine the visions and the ideas and images asociated. For example in the Lady of all Nation (a devotion started in Holande from a vision) the Virgin is overlapping the cross. And the project asociated to this is a new dogma: Mary as co-redeemer (see the image below).


Image

Here again, the point is not if Holy Mary is or not co-redeemer, because from the popular piety and personal faith one can asumme it and is not necessarily wrong, but do we need a new dogma?

As you said Maria, we have all we need, the problem is our lack of faith.


Wow. That picture of our Lady of All Nations seems so contrived.
If this is the Theotokos, which I highly doubt, where is her veil?

Where too is the Child Jesus? He is always present in Orthodox Icons
of His Mother, the Theotokos, especially those icons painted by St. Luke the Evangelist.

If you have read The Dialogues of Saint Catherine of Siena, then you most likely remember the warning from Mary and Her Son, Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, who both warned Catherine that the devil can appear as an Angel of Light or even as Mary or the Lord Jesus. However, since the Devil is a shapeshifter, he cannot maintain that fraud for any length of time. Furthermore, the person(s) receiving that fraudulent vision will become confused or proud as the deceitful Devil will also tempt.
On the contrary, those people who are experiencing a genuine apparition of the Holy Ones of God will experience a strong sense of repentance, true sorrow for their sins, and love for God.

Discernment is very lacking today, and Our Lord warned us about this, especially as we approach the End Times. He said that if people were to come to you and say, "Go and see, Christ is in the desert." Do not go as there will be many false visions of Christ.
These false visions can even deceive the elect.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.


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