The Filioque Done Right

This is a safe harbor for inquirers and catechumen to ask questions and share their journey into Holy Orthodoxy. Please be kind to our newcomers and warmly welcome them.

Moderator: Maria

sedevacantist
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri 12 February 2016 10:24 pm
Jurisdiction: Traditional Catholic

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby sedevacantist » Tue 12 September 2017 8:38 pm

Maria wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:
d9popov wrote:
Dear Sedevantist,

In short: there is a difference between eternal procession and temporal procession. When Orthodox Fathers state that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," they are speaking about temporal procession, not eternal procession. The Creed is speaking about eternal procession, so "and the Son" is not appropriate in the Creed. The ancient patristic consensus (Rome and all of the East) was to NOT have the Filioque in the Creed. The East remained faithful to that ancient patristic consensus, whereas the West perverted the Catholic consensus and fell away from the Catholic Church. If you do not clearly understand the difference between eternal and temporal procession, then you will misunderstand the entire issue. Please read the following carefully:


SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AND THE COUNCIL OF 1351 IN CONSTANTINOPLE (THE "NINTH ECUMENICAL" COUNCIL)
[The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father. He is co-beginningless with the Father and the Son as being outside time, but not without beginning, as Himself also having the Father as root, source, and cause, not as generated, but as proceeding; for He also came forth from the Father before all ages immutably and impassibly, not by generation, but by procession, being indivisible from the Father and the Son, as proceeding from the Father and resting in the Son, having union without confusion and division without division. He is God and is Himself from God, not one thing insofar as He is God, but another insofar as He is the Paraclete; He is the self-subsistent Spirit, proceeding from the Father and sent, that is manifested, through the Son, the cause of all that came into being, since They were perfected in Him; the same equal in honor with both the Father and the Son, without ingenerateness and generation. He was sent from the Son to His own disciples, that is, He was manifested. For how otherwise would He Who is not separated from Him be sent by Him? How otherwise, pray tell, would He come Who is everywhere? Wherefore, He is sent not only from the Son, but also from the Father and through the Son; and He comes from Himself when He is being manifested. For the sending, that is the manifestation, of the Spirit is a common action. He is manifested, not according to essence, for no one has ever either seen or declared the nature of God, but according to the grace, power, and energy that is common to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For the hypostasis of each, and whatever belongs to it, is peculiar to each of these. Not only is the super-essential Essence, which is entirely nameless, inexpressible, and incapable of participation, since it is above every name, expression, and participation, common to Them all, but also the grace, the power, the energy, the radiance, the kingdom, and the incorruption, and in general everything according to which God communicates and is united by grace with both holy angels and holy men. Departing from His simplicity neither on account of the distinction and difference of the hypostases, nor on account of the distinction and variety of powers and energies, we thus have one all-powerful God in one Deity [θεότης, theótēs]. For neither from perfect hypostases, could there ever come about any composition, nor could what is potential, because it has power or powers, ever truly be called composite by reason of potentiality itself.


Dear D9, if what you say is correct about temporal procession then can you provide church fathers speaking about this difference?
so for example the following quote, if you say St Cyril is speaking of temporal procession instead of eternal , can you provide proof?

Cyril of Alexandria
"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and
Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy
Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).


Dear Sedevacantist,

Remember that I was a "cradle Catholic" who attended Dominican University in San Rafael and Holy Names University in Oakland, California, where I studied theology every semester that I attended those two colleges under Dominican Friars.

If you read carefully, you will see that Saint Cyril of Alexandria clearly states, "Since the Holy Spirit when He is in us effects our being conformed to God." This clause definitely refers to the life of the Holy Spirit within us, which is a temporal procession. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us (temporal procession) at our Baptism and Holy Chrismation by the power of the Priest in the Holy Sacraments (Holy Mysteries). It is the Holy Spirit Who is the Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, and the Giver of Life, Who is everywhere present and fillest all things. It is the Holy Spirit Who initiates our very Life in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit Who purifies, illuminates, and sanctifies us. Without Him, we cannot enter Paradise.

And this is also why "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" will not be forgiven in this life nor in the next.


Dear Maria
doesn't really answer my question, I would need a church father that makes the distinction...for example ...stating The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son only in the temporal procession...
I can't find that..

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Maria » Wed 13 September 2017 1:45 am

Dear Sedevacantist,

You are continuing to debate and push the Filioque heresy. This will not be tolerated.

Here, for your enlightenment and that of others are excerpts from Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Father Michael Pomazansky+, Translated and Edited by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose+, St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhoood, Second Edition, Third Printing, 1997, pp. 86-91. + Both priests have fallen asleep in the Lord.

The ancient Orthodox teaching of the personal attributes of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was distorted in the Latin Church by the creation of a teaching of the procession, outside of time and from all eternity, of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son -- the Filioque. The idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son originated in certain expressions of Blessed Augustine. It became established in the West as obligatory in the 9th century, and when Latin missionaries came to the Bulgarians in the middle of the 9th century, the Filioque was in their Symbol of Faith [Nicene Creed]. (p. 86) ...

The Latin dogma of the Filioque is a substantial and important deviation from Orthodox truth. This dogma was subjected to detailed examination and accusation, especially by Patriarchs Photios (9th century) and Michael Cerularius (11th century), and likewise by St. Mark of Ephesus, who took part in the Council of Florence (1439). Adam Zernikav (18th century). who converted from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, cites about a thousand testimonies from the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church in favor of the Orthodox teaching of the Holy Spirit in his work, Concerning the Procession of the Holy Spirit. (p. 87) ...

However, the Latin dogma agrees neither with Sacred Scripture nor with the universal Sacred Tradition of the Church, and it does not even agree with the most ancient tradition of the Local Church of Rome. (p. 88) ...

However, no reasoning of any kind can obscure the perfectly precise words of the Saviour: the Comforter, whom I will send unto you from the Father, and immediately afterwards, the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father (John15:26). (p.89) ...

Apart from the dogmatic side, by introducing a new dogma the Roman Church violated the decree of the Third and subsequent Ecumenical Councils (4th to 7th centuries), which forbade the introduction of any kind of change into the Nicaean Symbol of Faith after the Second Ecumenical Council had given it its final form, Thus, the Roman Church also performed a serious canonical violation. (p. 91)


The Holy Orthodox Church continues to proclaim the unchanging faith as taught by Christ to His Apostles: One unchanging Faith preached to all peoples of all times.

Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church no longer believes in an unchanging faith nor an unchanging Divine Liturgy, instead it believes in developing dogmas, and later on, the Latin Church proclaimed the Supremacy and Infallibility of the Pope to cement these new heretical dogmas of the Filioque, Papal Supremacy, Papal Infallibility, etc.

Sedevacantist, you can see these continuing developing heretical dogmas in the very words that come from the mouth of the heretical Pope Francis. Did not five Roman Catholic Cardinals recently declare Francis to be a heretic? Why do you stay in communion with the Roman Catholic Church when it and its pope have obviously defected from the Truth, which is Christ?
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
HieromonkIrineos
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri 20 September 2013 7:22 pm
Faith: True Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC-A
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby HieromonkIrineos » Wed 13 September 2017 3:05 am

There is no sincerity of humility in him. He seeks to proselytize and promote the damnable heresy of Rome.
St. Andrew Orthodox Mission
Liberty Hill, Texas

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby Maria » Wed 13 September 2017 3:16 am

HieromonkIrineos wrote:There is no sincerity of humility in him. He seeks to proselytize and promote the damnable heresy of Rome.


True. He has a long road to travel if he wants to be chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy.

sedevacantist wrote:Dear Maria
doesn't really answer my question, I would need a church father that makes the distinction...for example ...stating The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son only in the temporal procession...
I can't find that..


You cannot find that nor can anyone else because the Early Church Fathers did not teach the Filioque as this was a Latin innovation (developing dogma) that occurred after the 4th century. Before the local Roman Council of Truillo (Spain) in the 5th century, all the Bishops and Holy Fathers of the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church universally taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father ... "the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father" (John15:26).
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

sedevacantist
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri 12 February 2016 10:24 pm
Jurisdiction: Traditional Catholic

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby sedevacantist » Wed 13 September 2017 7:56 pm

Maria wrote:
HieromonkIrineos wrote:There is no sincerity of humility in him. He seeks to proselytize and promote the damnable heresy of Rome.


True. He has a long road to travel if he wants to be chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy.

sedevacantist wrote:Dear Maria
doesn't really answer my question, I would need a church father that makes the distinction...for example ...stating The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son only in the temporal procession...
I can't find that..


You cannot find that nor can anyone else because the Early Church Fathers did not teach the Filioque as this was a Latin innovation (developing dogma) that occurred after the 4th century. Before the local Roman Council of Truillo (Spain) in the 5th century, all the Bishops and Holy Fathers of the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church universally taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father ... "the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father" (John15:26).



If you are strong in the faith why wouldn’t you want to discuss issues like the filioque with others who merely want the truth and have a different opinion than yours? I am always puzzled when people get upset because others have a differing opinion on religion. It tells me you aren’t so sure in your faith. Personally I enjoy listening to differing arguments, it makes you grow even stronger in the faith. If a protestant believes in faith alone I give him my arguments from scripture that prove he has the wrong faith, either he realizes his error and converts or he refuses , his choice, I win either way. What I wouldn’t tolerate are people who insult the Blessed Virgin Mary or start using profane language etc…but to have people who hold a different opinion than yourself on serious issues like Filioque, papacy , purgatory etc and claim these people can’t be tolerated is dumbfounding to me to say the least.

You asked me

“Did not five Roman Catholic Cardinals recently declare Francis to be a heretic? Why do you stay in communion with the Roman Catholic Church when it and its pope have obviously defected from the Truth, which is Christ?”

My answer: as a sedevacantist I reject all the popes since 1958 as they are clearly anti popes, anti Catholic , Rome today doesn’t hold the true faith, they are not the Catholic Church, I’m in communion with the Catholic Church of all times not with the Vatican 2 sect who merely have the buildings but not the faith.


My questions now are as follows, if you don’t tolerate them all you have to do is ignore them and you won’t hear from me again, I will still be able to sleep comfortably at night.

You wrote
“and it does not even agree with the most ancient tradition of the Local Church of Rome”

How so?

You wrote
“The idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son originated in certain expressions of Blessed Augustine”

Do you disagree with St Augustine?

You wrote
“You cannot find that nor can anyone else because the Early Church Fathers did not teach the Filioque as this was a Latin innovation”

Not sure what you mean, I have provided plenty quotes from Church fathers pre-schism about the Filioque…do you mean the Latin Church fathers are not considered church fathers?

User avatar
HieromonkIrineos
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri 20 September 2013 7:22 pm
Faith: True Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC-A
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Re: The Filioque Done Right

Postby HieromonkIrineos » Wed 13 September 2017 9:15 pm

Sedevacantist -

Stop questioning our faith because we reject your heresy. Maria is far more patient with you than I would be. She is the senior moderator her, so I defer to her, and am edified by her patient endurance with you.

You have been given the answers time and time again and you repeat yourself.

Holy Scripture is clear.

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which was specifically written to address the relation of the Spirit to the Godhead and to dispel the heretical attacks of the Pneumatomachi, is clear. You suggest, without the slightest historical support, that the author's of the Creed chose only to partially describe the procession of the Spirit, even though (a) the description accords completely with Scripture and (b) an expression similar to that of the Filioque would have strengthened the argument against the Pneumatomachi, by giving a doubly divine origin to the Spirit.

Your argument simply is not born of sound hermeneutics. This is true no matter how many proof texts of the Church fathers you provide. Church fathers are not infallible. If you believe they are, that is yet another error in your understanding of the Church and Holy Tradition. Having provided you the scriptural defense of the Creed and the credal statement of the Church, there is no need to rebut an erroneous opinion of one Church father or fifteen of them. That is not how Tradition works. The Faith is not determined by who can gather the most proof-texts.

Now you do not have to accept this simple explanation. But you do need to stop saying you haven't been answered or that we do not defend our faith. That is a damnable lie. You may not like the answer, but you have received it.
St. Andrew Orthodox Mission
Liberty Hill, Texas


Return to “Inquiring into Orthodoxy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests