RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

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Tryphon
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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by Tryphon »

Despotovac wrote:

You don’t have interest in the progress of the Serbian TOC. You just look the Greek Church as much as possible to expand in others territorys and your most important task that you have to justify such actions through the canons. Is impossible to anyone from Serbia under your Greek conditions to want to move from ecumenism to the true Orthodoxy.

Mr Despotovac,

These statements coming from You seem to be flat when looking at the entire serbian-GOC before and now after the schism. You fail to realize one thing that is quite Historic; The Hellenic Church gave You EVERYTHING and it still was not enough . There was NO cleric among You with the lineage to SvetoSavlje; The GOC took laymen from Serbia or as some state novices Who couldn't endure the long years required in the SP and tontured them,making some even Clerics.

The Biggest proof that Your accusations against Kyr,Kyr,Kallinikos and the GOC have no legs to stand upon are; A small minority broke off ,3 Clerics while 6 stayed with honor to the vows they gave. We both know very well that Your side was much,much more helped financially and materially by being associated as a GOC. Where faithful from everywhere sent help.

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Despotovac
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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by Despotovac »

Tryphon wrote:
Despotovac wrote:

You don’t have interest in the progress of the Serbian TOC. You just look the Greek Church as much as possible to expand in others territorys and your most important task that you have to justify such actions through the canons. Is impossible to anyone from Serbia under your Greek conditions to want to move from ecumenism to the true Orthodoxy.

Mr Despotovac,

These statements coming from You seem to be flat when looking at the entire serbian-GOC before and now after the schism. You fail to realize one thing that is quite Historic; The Hellenic Church gave You EVERYTHING and it still was not enough . There was NO cleric among You with the lineage to SvetoSavlje; The GOC took laymen from Serbia or as some state novices Who couldn't endure the long years required in the SP and tontured them,making some even Clerics.

The Biggest proof that Your accusations against Kyr,Kyr,Kallinikos and the GOC have no legs to stand upon are; A small minority broke off ,3 Clerics while 6 stayed with honor to the vows they gave. We both know very well that Your side was much,much more helped financially and materially by being associated as a GOC. Where faithful from everywhere sent help.

We have already clarified that the group that stayed with Greek GOC administration considers itself like branch Office of GOC of Greece and the Greek clergy. Two of these clerics live and serve in Greece. The other two were ordained without the knowledge of Serbian clergy, ie. were imposed. One came quite recently back from a real schism from Matthewites (because they did not want to receive him)and second from a real schism from HOCNA (because he did not find a enough good job). It is unrealistic images. A replay of the donations is a very accordance with the gospel: „don't let your left hand know what your right hand is...“. And other jurisdictions helping STOC with donations and do not place any conditions. A small number of truly Orthodox believers is just the fruit of the Greek position that the Serbia is Greece. Every honest Serbs can not accept this. We repeat for the umpteenth time that we are not an Indian tribe that the Greeks are enlightened, we are Orthodox Serbs! At the end of all this will turn out to be a historical mistake which we generally contact Greek GOC for help. :? :(

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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by leonidas »

MoscowIs3rdRome wrote:

one more word --Akakian Faction--, and he will see full disrespect towards his evil words.

I take back the word "faction", then, if it causes scandal in you, brother.

I will no longer post on this thread or on related threads. It represents a temptation for me as, indeed, for others as well.

Forgive me.

Leonidas

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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by Anastasios »

Despotovac wrote:

and second from a real schism from HOCNA (because he did not find a enough good job).

You are a slanderer. That priest risked everything to leave ecumenism to join your Church, and yet your Church could not provide anything for him. Then, he tried to come to the United States to serve as a priest for Serbs in the Diaspora. Fr. Akakije tried to stop him from coming here, because "he was not ready." Again, your Church could not support him and his family. Finally, he went to HOCNA to serve in a parish, and had a bad experience. I don't agree with him leaving to go to HOCNA, but he returned to Serbia, and returned to our Church. His case is the biggest proof that your Church is not qualified at this time to be an autocephalous Church: it could not provide a living for a married priest coming from ecumenism, such that he was tempted to go to another land and another jurisdiction to support his family, and your Church could not provide its own people in the Diaspora with ONE PRIEST to serve...there are THOUSANDS of Serbs who would leave ecumenism in the United States if there were 3-4 missionary priests here going from parish to parish preaching the truth...yet your Church cannot send even one priest to the Diaspora!

An autocephalous Church is one which can provide a succession to its episcopacy (who will succeed Fr. Akakije if, God forbid, he were to repose now?) and can support its priests materially, and which can supply priests to serve its Diaspora communities. Your Church cannot do this, so it has no claim to being autocephalous. The problem here is that your whole argument is based on "canonical right" but not on practical reality: you cannot support yourselves, so your "autocephalous" Church is actually an illusion.

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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by Despotovac »

Fr Anastasios wrote:
Despotovac wrote:

and second from a real schism from HOCNA (because he did not find a enough good job).

You are a slanderer. That priest risked everything to leave ecumenism to join your Church, and yet your Church could not provide anything for him. Then, he tried to come to the United States to serve as a priest for Serbs in the Diaspora. Fr. Akakije tried to stop him from coming here, because "he was not ready." Again, your Church could not support him and his family. Finally, he went to HOCNA to serve in a parish, and had a bad experience. I don't agree with him leaving to go to HOCNA, but he returned to Serbia, and returned to our Church. His case is the biggest proof that your Church is not qualified at this time to be an autocephalous Church: it could not provide a living for a married priest coming from ecumenism, such that he was tempted to go to another land and another jurisdiction to support his family, and your Church could not provide its own people in the Diaspora with ONE PRIEST to serve...there are THOUSANDS of Serbs who would leave ecumenism in the United States if there were 3-4 missionary priests here going from parish to parish preaching the truth...yet your Church cannot send even one priest to the Diaspora!

An autocephalous Church is one which can provide a succession to its episcopacy (who will succeed Fr. Akakije if, God forbid, he were to repose now?) and can support its priests materially, and which can supply priests to serve its Diaspora communities. Your Church cannot do this, so it has no claim to being autocephalous. The problem here is that your whole argument is based on "canonical right" but not on practical reality: you cannot support yourselves, so your "autocephalous" Church is actually an illusion.

Sorry and bless father! Father Slavisa served in the official Church 15-20 years. He does not have a spiritual childs, nor anyone came with him to True Orthodoxy. Is not that strange? When he was with us he has a strange behavior. We do not know him. Father Slavisa upon his return to Serbia from HOCNA, when he was through Archbishop Kalinik again received from schism, he asked OCA Bishop Nicholas to take him into the clergy (The Right Reverend Bishop NIKOLAI 5170 Evaline Street, Las Vegas, Nevada 89120 (702) 858-7801.) Is not it a scandal? (If you want you can check:vladyka.nikolai@gmail.com)
Bishop Akakije has right because he don’t sent father Slavisa to America as a representative of the Serbian TOC.

You are right father when you say that the STOC is weak and unprepared for larger projects. No one argues that with the getting of Serbian bishop STOC became autocephalous. Serbian TOC has yet to be restored but it is very important on what basis, as an independent or as a protectorate of another local Church. It is very important to the mission of True Orthodoxy in Serbia and the Serbian Church for the future. Only now with a Serbian bishop begins a real restoration of the Serbian TOC.

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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by Jean-Serge »

Fr Anastasios wrote:

An autocephalous Church is one which can provide a succession to its episcopacy (who will succeed Fr. Akakije if, God forbid, he were to repose now?) and can support its priests materially, and which can supply priests to serve its Diaspora communities. Your Church cannot do this, so it has no claim to being autocephalous. The problem here is that your whole argument is based on "canonical right" but not on practical reality: you cannot support yourselves, so your "autocephalous" Church is actually an illusion.

This are material and purely financial things... Support the priest materially is the task of the faithfuls and of the priests. As far as I remember, Saint Paul lived on producing tents and I think many priest have a secular job in many places.

Serving diaspora communities : diaspora is a Jewish concept, not an orthodox one. Any orthodox depends on the canonical bishop of the places. Moreover even in world orthodoxy, when there is more money, not all churches are able to satisfy the needs of emigrants.

My personal opinion on the thing is that saying that the Serbian church disappeared in 1945 is wrong. First because the GOC was in communion with the Free serbs that is a church of Serbia although in exile. Secondly, even if there is a single person like Saint Maximus said, it is still the church. In this question I see no difference between bishopless old calendarist in Greece and ROCOR. So I would have favoured that GOC without claiming an authority on Serbia give them a bishop. By the way, the cyprianist made a bishop for the tiny Bulgarian old calendarist community too. The question is when and who.

When :for me 200 faithfuls is a bit small for a bishop. It is less than in Congo for example! Maybe a chorbishop to begin with. But at the same time, if a bishop is a booster for missionary activity, why not.

Who : is the father Akakije the best? This is the great question. The coming years will tell us who he is. The bishop may not be of the nationality too. It could have been a resident Greek bishop too. In any case, visiting the parishes only 3 times in more than 10 years when Greece is so near from Serbia is surprising to me. As far as I remember, a bishop is an overseer...

One of the biggest problem for is that the consecration comes from RTOC whose canonicity is far from clear compared to ROAC.RTOC had this flip-flop attitude : Lazar of Odessa and Tambov left with Valentin of Suzdal to create ROCOR on a good canonical fact saying that ROCOR was not competent on Russian territory. Than he left (then called FROC) to come back to ROCOR. After that, he left ROCIE with the same first argument that ROCIE was not competent in Russia... So they may be a parasynagog from ROCIE or ROAC. That's the reason, Ive never supported union between GOC and RTOC.

I'm been reading these threads for many days and I think there is too much energy and time spent on these discussions (I hope the energy and time spent on this did not make you forget the pareclesis during this Dormition fast and your reader's services), all the more since now the persons are telling and retelling the same arguments! That's ok, we've understood the position of everybody. Now let's wait and see the fruits. No need to become infuriated on this. Good forefeast of Dormition to all.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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Re: RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

Post by sava »

Despotovac wrote:

No one argues that with the getting of Serbian bishop STOC became autocephalous.

Well, fr. Akakios..if you are not an autocephalous independent Church, neither a member of the RTOC hierarchy nor obedient to any Synod or Bishop, WERE DID YOU COME FROM and WERE ARE YOU GOING TO?
Admit it that you are totaly hovering in the middle of nowhere!

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