THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

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Ekklisiastikos
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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Ekklisiastikos »

Well, since the Serbian Church was governed by a Patriarch since 14th century, what else to expect than to see fr. Akakios the first TOC Patriarch! This is what The Serbian TOC(hristians) ask from the Synod. And does the RTOC has such a right? In other words if there were three TOC parishes in Italy and an hieromonk there, then "ex officio" he would be elevated to the rank of the first TOC Pope of Rome since 1054..? :?
Let us repeat "Mark Templet" 's words: Whether the Serbs deserve their own bishop or not is beside the point, they placed themselves into the hands of their shepherd and he said no. Now, they can pray and pester him until he gives them their own bishop, but to do otherwise, is it not disobedience?
Archb. Kallinikos' pastoral care and love for the Church and especially for those Christians who live under difficult and harsh circumstances of pressure is given! He is the shepherd of Serbian folk and he knows better. We all want to see a powerful, organized and selfgoverned Serbian Church! Obviously it's still an infant...

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Ephrem »

What, though, of the Serbs' argument that there is no minimum population requirement for having a bishop?

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Despotovac »

We hope that statements from Eklisiastikos are not the positions The Holy Synod of TOC of Greece. It is sad to hear such senseless and sick comparison of Orthodox Serbia with papist Italy, patriarch and pope. Such positions only prove that Greeks do not understand other Orthodox nations who are brothers in Christ and are enemy to them. Official Serbian Church, e.i. its episcopate has fallen into sergianism and ecumenism only some fifty years ago, and yet great number of clergy, monastics and faithful are still keeping the Old calendar (without this, the official Church in Serbia would`ve introduced the new calendar in Serbia long ago) and they are anti-ecumenists. The problem we have here is that they do not want to leave Serbian Church for Greek Church, e.i. to be under the Greek bishops what would be if they now decide to step out from the Official Serbian Church. Keeping this situation on, the mission of True Orthodoxy in Serbia is blocked.

ПРАВОСЛАВЉЕ ИЛИ СМРТ!

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Mark Templet »

But aren't we missing the point here? Did those people in Serbian come to the Greeks and and specifically ask them to restore their national church (a bishopric)? Are there advantages to allowing them to have what they ask for? Yes! But there are also dangers as well; dangers that a new bishop all alone in a country will find hard to deal with.

My point is, have Fr. Akakios attend every synodal meeting possible and plead their case. Do one or two of the things they required (e.g., found a men's monastery, open another parish or two) and then keep asking and praying. But to refuse to abide by your shepherds decision means that a STOC would be founded upon self-will.

I can see the case for wanting to establish their own local church, in fact this is what the reality of Orthodoxy is-- the local church. However, they must do so with the blessings of their current bishop, not in a spirit of disobedience. If this is done the right way then it will sew the seeds of unity and brotherly love, else they set themselves against the GOC and the GOC against the RTOC. Have we not done enough of this in True Orthodoxy? Look at the stuff we deal with now; all the mistrust. It will already take us a generation to overcome it, why heap more on the pile?

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Ephrem »

I can see the case for wanting to establish their own local church, in fact this is what the reality of Orthodoxy is-- the local church. However, they must do so with the blessings of their current bishop, not in a spirit of disobedience. If this is done the right way then it will sew the seeds of unity and brotherly love, else they set themselves against the GOC and the GOC against the RTOC. Have we not done enough of this in True Orthodoxy? Look at the stuff we deal with now; all the mistrust. It will already take us a generation to overcome it, why heap more on the pile?

I also agree with this. Like Fr. Mark said earlier, whether or not the Serbs deserve a bishop is really against the point. In our times, when there is so much confusion and mistrust, it seems that we oughtn't be so concerned with the rights and entitlements of each local church, but rather with the good of the church overall. This goes, of course, for the Greeks as well as the Serbs.

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Cyprian »

Greetings,

The latter [RTOC], having condemned Cyprianism as a form of hidden Ecumenism that falls under anathema, and Sergianism as a moral sin against the teaching on the Church...

I have now asked multiple times to no avail: Where exactly may one find this condemnation of Cyprianism by the RTOC? I would appreciate a direct link, please. Once someone directed me to a RTOC website in English, but it was very cluttered and trying to find the declaration against Cyprianism was like trying to find a needle in a haystack. How hard is it for a representative of the RTOC here to simply supply a reference that I can actually read for myself? I have no trouble locating the condemnation of Cyprianism by ROCOR-V and the ROAC Sobor on the Internet, but no such success when it comes to the RTOC. This is an important dogmatic declaration that should not remain hidden. Thank you.

...has undertaken a broader inter-confessional activity, conducting a process of negotiations on mutual recognition with the strongest “Florinite” Synod of the TOC of Greece – the “Chrysostomites”, who are now under the administration of Archbishop Kallinikos.

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Perhaps the so-called "strongest" synod of the TOC of Greece, (which I presume you mean to be the largest), that is, the synod presently headed by Abp. Kallinikos, are not the right Greeks to be negotiating with. "Largest" or "strongest" does not necessarily equate to the purest or most impeccable confession of the Faith. Perhaps the RTOC should explore the possibility of negotiations with another GOC in Greece, such as a Matthewite synod.

It should be said that the Serbs have unambiguously evaluated this reply as “the cunning of the Greeks”, whom they traditionally accuse of phyletism and lack of love for the Slavic Churches.

As I said, perhaps the RTOC has been negotiating with the wrong group of Greeks. Perhaps they might explore the possibility of finding some GOC-Greeks that are not "cunning," and negotiate with them instead.

The "cunning" of the Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos is obliquely confirmed by the recent passing over into it of two bishops of the Boston Synod of the TOC.

Considering that these former HOCNA bishops have been confessing heresy for quite a long time, and from all appearances were not required to publicly recant their heresies before being received into the synod of GOC/HOTCA, I am inclined to agree with your characterization of their synod as "cunning". So, once again, why doesn't the RTOC find some TOC-Greeks that are not cunning, and seek to unite with them?

We should note that this readiness of the Russian Synod may have a negative effect on the course of the negotiations with the Greeks, which have gone on now for three years without particular success. Undoubtedly the Greeks will see this readiness as interference in their internal affairs. But, at the same time, RTOC will acquire serious allies in the Serbs. Apparently for the Russian hierarchs Slavic brotherhood is closer and more comprehensible that the capricious and difficult friendship with the Greeks.

Has anyone considered that perhaps God does not will that a union occur between the RTOC and a bunch of "cunning" Greeks? I can state unequivocally, that I have absolutely zero confidence (to put it politely) in the clergy of the American sister synod (HOTCA). I fear that if the RTOC unites with the so-called GOC of Greece under the presidency of Kallinikos, that by extension, the RTOC here in America will be in communion with Met. Pavlos and Bp. Christodoulos, who do not rightly divide the word of truth. I do not want the RTOC to be contaminated by any communion with Met. Pavlos and his vicar Christodoulos, whom I consider to be quite cunning as well.

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Re: THE RUSSIAN IS THE SERB’S FRIEND FOREVER?

Post by Cyprian »

Mark Templet wrote:

So, my question is: how is it Orthodox to disobey your synod? How is it Orthodox for the RTOC to intervene in the affairs of a bishop and his flock? I'm not saying that an STOC is a bad idea, I am just saying that its stuff like this that is the basis for all the disunity among the TOCs; from my view I fail to see how this is a basis for furthering unity.

Greetings Fr. Mark,

Your question regarding disobedience to one's synod is valid and certainly worth considering. As you probably well know, we have a popular saying in English: "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."

I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer as to the exact circumstances surrounding the departure of your Bishop Andrei from his former synod, the GOC of Greece (Matthewite), formerly under the presidency of Andreas, Archbishop of Athens and all Greece, and currently under Abp. Nicholas.

Was your current Bp. Andrei (at the time priest Michael) given a blessing to depart his synod of bishops, or not? One would guess that priest Michael Maklakov was not given a blessing to go to Gregory of Colorado, since for many years now he has been well known to revile and calumniate the Matthewites every chance he gets. So it would be very shocking for the synod he was subject to, to give him a blessing to join a bishop who was an open enemy of their synod.

So, common sense would lead us to believe that your Bishop Andrei, who was then priest Michael, did not leave his former Matthewite synod under the best of terms. Now, if the Matthewite synod he was in obedience to began to preach heresy publicly, or bishop Andrei was unable to receive justice at the hands of his bishop/synod, then one could see a valid reason for his departure. However, I am not aware of any claims to this effect.

So, it remains a mystery as to the exact circumstances of how your current ROAC bishop, when a priest with the Matthewites at the time, left his former synod which he pledged obedience to.

Cyprian

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