ROAC or ROCOR?

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Nevski
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Your demand

Post by Nevski »

AlaskanOrthodox wrote:

I demand that nevsky apologize for such slanderous and damaging remarks. They are almost malicious and diabolic.

:thwack:

"Is Outrage!" http://www.theoniondome.com/

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Last edited by Nevski on Mon 17 November 2003 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TomS
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Post by TomS »

Juvenaly wrote:

TomS: Are you honestly stating that the Church exists in you because you are sinless? None is sinless except for God. So how can it be found inside a human? You stated:

That's because the "true Apostolic Faith" resides WITHIN YOU. Why would you think it resides in any institution run by sinners?

It seems that the statement you are trying to make is very clear and yet very disturbing at the same time. Please explain yourself.

Juvenaly

Juvenaly,

Are you stating that the Church as it exists here on earth (i.e., the Orthodox Church) is sinless? And WHICH Orthodox Church? Are you saying that if someone is not a card-carrying member of a SPECIFIC Orthodox Church that they cannot be "saved"

It seems that the statement you are trying to make is very clear and yet very disturbing at the same time. Please explain yourself.

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

Ben Jamin
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Post by Ben Jamin »

LatinTrad wrote:
AlaskanOrthodox wrote:

This pseudo-papal form of Ecclesiology used by some mainstream Orthodox is against the true notion of what the Church is; that communion with "official" "canonical" Jurisdictions makes one Orthodox; NO!

This is precisely why I am grateful to be Catholic. The Fathers unanimously teach that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is 1) visible and 2) truly one. The true Church cannot be cut up and divided into an infinite number of little sects, each following its own bishop, each choosing what to believe. The true Church is visibly one. You are leaving it up to each layman to decide whether his bishops are heretics or not, and telling him to "study" all these different sects, and jump from one to the next until he finds one that he likes. Orthodoxy cannot be divorced from Communion with the Church. Even if the Church is filled with heretics and worse, there is no salvation anywhere else.

Ben, I think you will find that none of these groups have any jurisdictional coherence to them. It seems that no EO bishop feels any obligation to stay in union with any other bishop--but we know from the Fathers that the Church can't work that way. Look at me, for instance. I am a traditionalist Catholic who wants to attend the Tridentine Mass until the day I die. Will I sever communion with Peter over that? Never. There is no salvation in traditionalist schisms, as attractive as they may appear. I pray God that my union with the One Church may never be weakened.

I apologize if this offends anyone here, but I think we need to meditate a little more on the unity of the Church. St. Athanasius never broke his communion with Peter's successor (even when St. Liberius, under duress, condemned him). St. Athanasius never violated the discipline of the Church. In this age of heresies, we should look to St. Athanasius for our example, and remember that for juridical purposes only the Church can declare someone a heretic.

But, for the EO's, where is the Church? What Church? The ROCOR synod? But aren't they schismatic? Schismatic from whom? But it's okay to be schismatic? Etc., Etc., Etc.

I trust I make myself clear.

LatinTrad

Latin Trad divison exists in Catholicism too. Orthodoxy seems divided but so does Catholicism!

As a Traditional Latin Mass Catholic who has spent time in the Novus Ordo, FSSP chaples, SSPX chapels, and even CMRI chapels (tho never took communion because I am NOT a sedevacantist) I can tell you that since Vat II Catholicism is extremley divided!

Who is right in Catholicism? CMRI? SSPX? FSSP? Which traditional group is right? Or is the Novus Ordo right?

Who do you trust? The Pope today who kisses the Koran, prays with non-Christians and non-Catholics, and who celebreates the new mass? Or the Popes of the past who stood firm in what you believe to be the true faith?

Do you accept Pope Paul VI's mass, which was invented with the help of protestants, or do you hold fast to the words spoken by Pope St Pius V in his papal bull Quo Primum said that priests can forever celebrate the Tridentine Mass, "without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty"? Or the words spoken by Pope Pius XII : “The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of UNITY and an effective SAFE GARD against the corruption of true doctrine."?

Do you attend or follow "charismatic" Catholic groups who speak in tounges and follow many fundamentalist practices?

Do listen to the bishops who are pro-life or pro-choice? Do you listen to those who claim there is slavation outside of the Catholic Church, or those bishops and clergy who deny this?

Catholicism and be just as divided!

But Christ's true Chruch cannot be as divded as Catholicism or Orthodoxy. In the case of Catholicism the Novus Ordo is right or it is wrong. SSPX is right or CMRI is, there cannot be such divsion in the body of Christ. And in the case of Orthodox either ROAC holds faith or not, either ROAC is the true Church, or she is not.

Please latin trad keep me in your prayers!

LatinTrad
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Post by LatinTrad »

Ben, I wrote,
Even if the Church is filled with heretics and worse, there is no salvation anywhere else.

St. Augustine said we should not be surprised to find non-Catholic things (e.g. sin) occupying the members of the Catholic Church. Nothing of what you mentioned phazes me in any way.

The Catholic Church is still the Church in union with the Pope, no matter how many Korans he kisses. Popes in the history of the Church have often given scandal. Our Faith should not be so weak that we are fazed because the Pope sins, or because there are freak-show groups out there.

The FSSP is not an alternative to "following" the Pope. One can be in communion with the Pope while disapproving of his actions (St. Catherine of Siena? St. Paul, anyone?). That is my position. That is the position of all traditionalist Catholics in union with Rome.

LatinTrad

Ben Jamin
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Joined: Wed 12 November 2003 10:39 pm

Post by Ben Jamin »

ummm what happened? there used to be 4 pages to this topic....but the 4th page is gone along with many posts..what is with that? :?

Ben Jamin
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Joined: Wed 12 November 2003 10:39 pm

Post by Ben Jamin »

Dear Ben, the "missing" posts were off topic so I split the thread and took the Latin talk to the Misc. :D


In Christ,
-Nicholas
Insane Ramblings & Orthodox Ecclesiology

Well my question was answered....now I see what happens here with posts that are "off the topic". Oy!

Last edited by Ben Jamin on Wed 19 November 2003 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Methodius
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