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buzuxi
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Post by buzuxi »

Babylon is a symbolic name of any city where godlessness reigns. Ive heard many including Athonite monks refer to NYC as Babylon.

But at the time of the NT, Rome was considered the new babylon(see 1Pet 5.13). Keep in mind that there are still monks (and many protestants) who interpret the events of Rev 17-18 to be speaking of the current papist church who are the inheritors of ancient roman rile. The babylon mentioned in Rev 17,18 has always been interpreted as Rome. You can look this up in the Orthodox NT (2vol set) under footnote (401) on Rev 17.12 where St Cyril of Jerusalem describes that 10 roman kings will come to power and an eleventh the antichrist will seize the roman power, the remaning kings will be subject to him.
Every source i have ever read interprets the Mystery Babylon to be Rome this includes Orthodox eschatological books like "Ultimate Things" and the OSB. Also Rome is pointed to thru a historical study.

It says the woman sits on 7 mountains (Rev 17.9). Rome was built around 7 hills. It says 5 (kings) have fallen, One is, the other has not yet come. The five that have fallen were Augustus thru Nero. Nero was slain but many thought he would come back to life(see Rev13.3).
The one that was most likely refered to Domition (others say his father Vespacian). The one who is yet to come , the antichrist, was believed to be a Nero revived (as mentioned above rev 13.3), hence the phraseology , "the beast that was and is not, is himself also the eighth(Rev 17. 11). In Rev 17.8 the same basic phrase :'The beast that you saw was and is not and will ascend out of the bottomless pit....". Anotherwords he was a king, at the time of writing he was not, but will once again reveal himself.

Jerusalem's judgement and destruction had already come when the Romans destroyed it, in their war from 66-72 a.d. Under the roman general Titus in 70 a.d. the temple was destroyed and finally the total city ransacked. This is why the Jerusalem Church fled to Pella in 66 a.d. heeding Christ's prophecys about the judgement of Jerusalem (see Matt 24.1-2, Lk 21.5-9, 20-24.)

In Revelations Jerusalem is still called the 'holy city' (Rev11.2) and the 'beloved city ' (Rev 20.9)

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Cyprian
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Post by Cyprian »

Babylon is a symbolic name of any city where godlessness reigns.

I can accept this, and won't dispute the point that a number of cities could legitimately qualify as being likened to the ancient pagan capital Babylon.

However, there is only one Mystery Babylon the Great of the Apocalypse. She commits fornication with the kings of the earth and naturally she has harlot daughters with her in captivity, for she is called the "Mother of Harlots".

So yes, there can be several harlot daughter cities of Babylon, but there is only one Mother of them all.

Let's draw a comparison with regard to the Church.

There are seven churches of the Apocalypse, but only one Mother-city of the churches: "the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (cf. Gal 4.26)

Ive heard many including Athonite monks refer to NYC as Babylon.

No disrespect intended, but I'm not really interested in what most Athonite monks of our time have to say. Most of them are ecumenist New Calendarists. Clearly their judgment is suspect, and cannot be fully relied upon.

NYC is a key focal point and outpost for the synagogue of Satan, so I can sympathize with those who wish to think of her as Babylon, but I can assure you she is not the "Great City" Babylon, the Mother of harlots, referenced in the Apocalypse.

New York city of course is not mentioned anywhere in the Sacred Scripture, nor by any of the ancient Fathers, for she was not even founded as a city until the latter part of the 17th century. She did not accomplish her rise to prominence as a center of global finance and commerce until a couple of centuries subsequent to that.

Therefore, if we were to accept the premise that NYC in an exclusive sense is the Babylon of the Apocalypse, we would also have to accept that a significant and prominent section of the Apocalypse -- specifically that which deals with Mystery Babylon -- was completely irrelevant to Christians for much of the age of the Church.

That is just one of a number of reasons why this supposition is quite untenable.

The prophetic character of the Apocalypse is not confined to only our time, but has had relevance throughout the age of the Church.

That many assign the prophecy contained in the Apocalypse exclusively to our day is a manifest sign of the extreme self-centeredness existent in our culture. We tend to believe that God delivered a revelation that is primarily focused on our own time.

That is a fundamental mistake that leads people astray when attempting to interpret many of these mysteries.

I will address Rome in my next post...

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Helen
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Post by Helen »

No disrespect intended, but I'm not really interested in what most Athonite monks of our time have to say. Most of them are ecumenist New Calendarists. Clearly their judgment is suspect, and cannot be fully relied upon.

No disrespect intended, but clearly your world is very small.

Growing up in the ROCOR church, way before the union, churchly people around me understood Babylon to mean USA as well.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Well, I personally, don't know the final answer. We're all speculating. Is it Jerusalem, NYC, Mt. Sinai, any city that has apostacized?

Is it literal or figurative? Who here has the great spiritual knowledge to answer our questions?

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

buzuxi
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Post by buzuxi »

I dont think anyone considers NYC or any other "sin city" as the literal place spoken of in Rev 17-18.
Only that Babylon is a symbolic name which can be given to any city where godlessness reigns and whose influence whether moral or political can extend beyond her boundaries, whether NYC, Vegas or Rio D' Janero etc.
In Peter's epistle it was Rome and in the Apocalypse it is using imagery of Rome (the 7 hills, the 10 kings etc), whether it will be Rome or some world capital, we will find out when it comes.

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Post by Ekaterina »

Babylon ....is within us.

Katya

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Cyprian
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Post by Cyprian »

Growing up in the ROCOR church, way before the union, churchly people around me understood Babylon to mean USA as well.

Dear Helen,

No offense taken.

But of course the private interpretation(s) of some "churchly people" around you does not prove much. If these people truly had understanding of these things, they would have known that Mystery Babylon is called that "great city" no less than 7 or 8 times in the Apocalypse. Last time I checked, the USA was not a city. So unless they specified a particular city in America, then we can assume that they were simply coming up with interpretations from the imaginings of their own mind, and not from Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers.

But of course, Jerusalem is called a "great city" in Holy Scripture, in the Apocalypse itself (Apoc. 11.8) and in Jeremiah (22.8), making the interpretation all that more sure.

You can call USA Babylon if you so choose. Babylon simply means "confusion". There certainly is a lot of godless confusion in America, and fornication with the Great Harlot taking place, no question.

"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."

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