Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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Justice
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

Barbara wrote:

Replying to Maria's post. Without looking anything up, just from memory, that system was called the Devshirme.
I don't recall that the boys were taken THAT young as 4 years old. Either way, it represented a great boost for provincial peasant families to send a son to the Ottoman Court. Some of these conscripts rose to exceedingly high places in the government, thus becoming a source of pride for their parents. I highly doubt even one family thought that their son would do such a dastardly thing. Remember that this was the Eastern Mediterranean -- not modern America where such atrocities are premeditated by demonic, psychotic children.
In those days in that world, family was sacred. No sane son would ever remotely conceive of such a heinous action. Nor did the sons usually return to their homes once taken by the Sultan's officials. Never. For once they entered the ranks of the Janissaries, this service became the youths' entire life. Many were happy to be given high ranks to which they would never have hope to attain otherwise.
Not all fought in the Sultan's campaigns. Some who were considered not suitable were given other occupations, such as architects.

I always believed they took the children as soon as they were weaned, though I never was focused very much on this subject. Thank you for an insight into the history of the Ottoman Empire and its corrupt power.

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Maria
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Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Maria »

Barbara wrote:

Replying to Maria's post. Without looking anything up, just from memory, that system was called the Devshirme.
I don't recall that the boys were taken THAT young as 4 years old. Either way, it represented a great boost for provincial peasant families to send a son to the Ottoman Court. Some of these conscripts rose to exceedingly high places in the government, thus becoming a source of pride for their parents. I highly doubt even one family thought that their son would do such a dastardly thing. Remember that this was the Eastern Mediterranean -- not modern America where such atrocities are premeditated by demonic, psychotic children.
In those days in that world, family was sacred. No sane son would ever remotely conceive of such a heinous action. Nor did the sons usually return to their homes once taken by the Sultan's officials. Never. For once they entered the ranks of the Janissaries, this service became the youths' entire life. Many were happy to be given high ranks to which they would never have hoped to attain otherwise.
Not all fought in the Sultan's campaigns. Some who were considered not suitable were given other occupations, such as architects. The most famous of these is Mimar Sinan [ architect Sinan ], who is believed to have been either Cappodocian Greek or Albanian or Armenian. He was conscripted into the Devshirme system and after Janissary service went on to become one of the world's most extraordinary architects, influencing generations after him in various different Empires.
Sinan is most famous for having designed the Suleimaniye Mosque in Istanbul, but his work was so vast and widespread that he was a marvel of his time. Had he not been conscripted, the world would never seen such beautiful architecture.
Instead of attacking his parents, he is thought to have intervened to save their lives.

Whether or not one is interested in this brilliant career of service to one's country [ one's Empire, in this case ], one fact about Sinan is instructive.
He had to go through the military Janissary duty. Only at the age of 50, I think it was, did he even BEGIN the new career !
It was not a simple job, either, but a highly complex one building gigantic edifices which required prodigious effort to study from scratch. That, at an age that this modern Western society considers 'over the hill' ; rarely do people above 50 get hired, particularly not for entirely new trades.


Barbara,

Please read the lives of these New Martyrs. Your post above with its untruths borders on Islamic proselytization and false glorification of Islam. The next post like this will be moved into the Moderation Forum and a board warning issued.

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Yes, these first born sons of devout Orthodox Christians (non-Muslims) were taken by force from their parents at a very young age, as soon as they were weaned. This was a form of taxation. These toddlers were placed in nurseries where they were educated in the Islamic religion and encouraged to convert with honors being bestowed on those who did. They were forbidden to have any contact with their families. Some of these new converts became very zealous and would grow up to kill their own parents and villagers. True Orthodox Christians were appalled and not honored when their sons apostatized.

Not only did the Ottomans control the non-Muslim people by demanding their first-borne sons be conscripted into the Islamic army, but also they were forced to pay very high taxes.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

While at these junctures, the use of the lestovka by which group sounds blurred, it is unusual to me that St Seraphim is always pictured with one. Isn't he the only canonized Saint thus depicted ? Why is this permitted, one wonders ?

Then the St Petersburg Holy Synod's obstinacy in refusing to grant his glorification may have been due to some whispers like this ?

No, Saint Juliana the Merciful is also always portrayed with a lestovka in her icon. Why was it permitted? It's the traditional Russian prayer rope. Permission is not needed to use one. Even today Diveyevo Convent, the monastery Saint Seraphim served at, sells lestovkas.

Yes, that was partially the reason. The Holy Synod was able to obtain a statement from his monastery that Saint Seraphim condemned the Old Rite and was a firm supporter of the Nikonian Reforms, but there is enough evidence originating from his lifetime that makes that doubtful. For example, we know that he wore an Old Rite klobuk, something that no-one in the New Rite was supposed to wear. His relics were also not incorrupt, something that the Holy Synod viewed as problematic in light of some of the stories about the saint (such as his transfiguration), and because it would no doubt give the Old Believers more ammunition to use against the New Rite (it did). However, due to Tsar Nicholas II's insistence that he be glorified, the Holy Synod reluctantly agreed.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

NCYet wrote :

but there is enough evidence originating from his lifetime that makes that doubtful. For example, we know that he wore an Old Rite klobuk, something that no-one in the New Rite was supposed to wear.

Right. When I read your words about St Seraphim having been a firm supporter of the Nikonian reforms, some doubt registered. That is without knowing any solid information, but merely instinctual feeling that there is more to it than this. Of course Sarov would do anything to reassure the St Petersburg Synod of the early 20th century that their star holy man was perfectly sound theologically. Who does not want a native son to be glorified, after all ?

Well, do you have knowledge of other areas where he seemed to cross a fuzzy line between Old Belief and New ?
I am fascinated with this subject. I started researching Motovilov's life as a way to better understand why I felt hesitation about St Seraphim. Originally, I was eager to visit Diveyevo. I remember asking for directions by train and bus from 2 women sitting outside Church early one Sunday morning, one of whom had traveled over there recently. Later, however, I mysteriously became less and less drawn to go there. I finally decided it was not on my priority list, and have not regretted having missed Diveyevo, though I might like to see Sarov. The 2 Optina Elders, St Moses and St Anthony, started out their monastic path there, after all, as well as other famed ascetics, such as Abbot Nazary of Valaam.

About the prophecy of his own resurrection, even walking around the Canal in his earthly body at some future time,
I wondered whether this is actually reliable ? Motovilov was having those extreme demonic possession episodes during some of the time he knew St Seraphim> perhaps the local landowner was mistaken here ? Or something got twisted ? Because
it's too bizarre for anyone to prophecy this about their own self, doesn't it seem ?

I wonder if that portrait at the New York state Novo-Diveyevo Convent of St Seraphim - a great rarity and perhaps the only picture painted of him in his lifetime - is one which shows the Old Believer klobouk ?

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Correction : St Anthony [ Putilov ] of Optina did not go to Sarov ; he was too young at the time. It was the eldest brother Jonah who stayed on after Timothy - the future Abbot Moses of Optina - left for Moscow and decided to not return to Sarov but become a desert-dweller in the Briansk forests. Jonah later became Abbot Isaiah of Sarov, quite an important position.
And as we know, Fr Anthony, the third Putilov brother to enter monasticism, was made [ against his wishes, for he hated to leave Optina ] Abbot of Maloyaroslavets, a small monastery north of Optina dedicated to St Nicholas.

So, 3 brothers. 3 Abbots !

By the way, one of the Elders of Optina widely known at the time but largely forgotten now was a former Old Believer, HieroschemamonkJohn. His forceful and persuasive writings against the Old Believers gained him fame throughout Russia.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

I wonder if that portrait at the New York state Novo-Diveyevo Convent of St Seraphim - a great rarity and perhaps the only picture painted of him in his lifetime - is one which shows the Old Believer klobouk ?[/color]

I won't comment on whether or not St. Seraphim of Sarov is actually a saint or not. I simply don't know enough, so at this point I think it is better to accept what the church believes. I am not the judge men who lived centuries ago that the Church has glorified, after all; I believe what my bishop believes, and if Saint Seraphim is a saint in his eyes he is in mine. But yes, some of the things you brought up are used in Old Believer polemics (they don't like him for several reasons).

Yes, you are correct that the only lifetime portrait of him shows him in an Old Believer klobouk.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Your attitude is a good one, NCYet, in following your bishop and Church.

Well, what other reasons are the Old Believers against him ?

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