Old Believers and Old Calendarists

[Justice]

This is relatively of topic, but I do like that the Old Believers are keeping their clothing traditional, the boys should wear polo shirts or vests and the women should wear long traditional skirts. I hope these customs have a revival in the Traditional Orthodox Church.

Quite a few ladies in the Genuine Traditional Orthodox Churches do wear long skirts, and when their bishop comes, they wear the traditional dress of their country. Russian men and boys (or converts) often wear the long sleeved traditional Russian shirts and vests to greet their bishop.

I know some of the congregation follows this rule, but shouldn't everyone adhere to this rule? I think back to the Middle Ages, and as shown in paintings, the poor congregation is accepted for their ragged clothing. I try and compare this with the secular clothing of today, though the problem is that most of the people who wear secular clothing into a church have money to buy more formal outfit. I understand if someone doesn't have money for a suit or a dress, but if they do and they're coming to church in secular clothing, that just shows laziness on their part.

[Justice]

Does the red really indicate the great schema, or was it copied from Roman Catholic Cardinals and bishops that the old believers saw in the Austro-Hungarian empire? The garb of some Serbian and Romanian bishops appears to borrow the red from the RCs. Some of those bishops were under the political control of the Austro-Hungarians.

Yes, it really does indicate the Great Schema. The Old Believers would be the last group to try and attempt to copy the Roman Catholics on anything.

Great to hear that it's native to Orthodoxy, whenever I hear something like this I feel very happy for some reason.

[Barbara]

Agree on the need for returning to high standards of dress, including traditional costumes, which add color and flair to a Church gathering.
What could be done to encourage people to wear appropriate dress to services, I wonder ? This should probably made into a separate thread.

Back to the Old Believer pictures : now, that is not patriarch Alexei II. Look at his features. It looks like an actor playing him in a film dressed up in the patriarchal regalia.

[Justice]

Agree on the need for returning to high standards of dress, including traditional costumes, which add color and flair to a Church gathering.
What could be done to encourage people to wear appropriate dress to services, I wonder ? This should probably made into a separate thread.

Back to the Old Believer pictures : now, that is not patriarch Alexei II. Look at his features. It looks like an actor playing him in a film dressed up in the patriarchal regalia.

I agree Barbara, my comments on formal clothing should be in the thread relating to this subject. As for the picture, I haven't looked into Patriarch Alexy II very much as I mostly focus on Kiril and pre-schism patriarchs. I looked at this picture again, and your right, it's not Patriarch Alexy II. I looked up on this picture and it appears that this man is from the Russian Old-Rite church he apparently consecrated bishops for the Georgian Old-Rite church the picture symbolizes their communion.

[Barbara]

By pre-schism, I assume you mean the Patriarchs and Metropolitans of the older Russian Church ? I think they are fascinating. Few people today seem to know much about them, unfortunately. The focus is only on the 19th century rather than the important history of the Church leading through the time of Patriarch Nikon. After him, there were only a couple of establishment puppet figures, who were quickly removed together with the entire Patriarchal system by the marauding peter Alexeyevich. By the way, the Old Believers saw this Romanov tsar as an Anti-Christ figure. This may be the one place I agree with them on any topic ! [ We might say the Old Believer dress looks more respectful, but also do some American sects wear conservative attire, with long skirts, etc. ]

Yes, good ! You discovered that it is an Old Believer make-believer patriarch ! I noticed the red piping on his vestments too, so of course that would not be from the Moscow Patriarchate.

I wonder who that one MP Met is, however in the picture below the one we are discussing ? I had earlier thought it looked like Bp Tikhon [Shevkunov] from the side, but then saw it's a Met. He will be there, I am sure, fairly soon, but not as of this moment.

Thanks for the research, Justice. I had no idea there is a Georgian branch of the Old Believers ! That is quite new information.

Speaking of important figures in the Russian Church, I recall reading that Metropolitan Philaret [ Drozdov ] of Moscow lamented the growth of Old Believers during the early part of the 1800s. Measures were taken to stem this, but apparently, from something this Saint wrote, the Old Believers kept expanding during that time.

[NotChrysostomYet]

As I said earlier, that first picture you posted is a tiny group of Old Believers which came out of the "Living Church". Don't take them seriously. The priested Old Believers (whose hierarchy comes from a certain Ambrose) have anathematized ecumenism, though they are willing to talk (not pray with) others. The second picture is a MP metropolitan and the Old Believer Metropolitan of Moscow.

Barbara, yes, there is a Georgian branch of Old Believers, and most of them are in communion with the Russian Old Believers. This is due to the fact that Georgia continued using the Old Rite all the way until the 19th century, when Russia invaded and realized that Georgia had the practices of the "Old Believer heretics".* They forced Georgia to disband the patriarchate, and they installed a Russian metropolitan who repeated the action of Patriarch Nikon in Russia by forcing Georgia to adopt the Nikonian Reforms. Russia also forced Georgia to stop using their language in the liturgy and use Church Slavonic instead. However, Georgia's chant style managed to survive.

*Saint Dimitry of Rostov is infamous for forging a document during the last few months of his life that "proved" the Old Rite was heresy, and it was one of the reasons Moscow cited as making him worthy of canonization. His akathist in Russian continues to reference this. However, the Russian Church has since admitted that it was a fake. (Here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_synod ... tyr_Martin). From the very beginning, as they tended to do since Old Believers consisted of both the poor and the very rich and educated, the Old Believers recognize this as a forgery, but they were ignored until the Russian Empire collapsed.

Regarding Metropolitan Philaret: the short of it is that he was influential in their continued persecution, sealing their altars close and imprisoning any clergy and monastics he could find. For the Edinoverie, or coreligionists (Old Believers who reunited with the Russian Orthodox Church, whom Old Believers regard as Uniates) he forced them to adopt several aspects of the Nikonian Reforms, and would not even let them use the two-finger sign of the cross. There's more on him, but in short he did not treat them well at all, causing his efforts to be ineffectual.

[Justice]

Barbara, yes, there is a Georgian branch of Old Believers, and most of them are in communion with the Russian Old Believers. This is due to the fact that Georgia continued using the Old Rite all the way until the 19th century, when Russia invaded and realized that Georgia had the practices of the "Old Believer heretics".* They forced Georgia to disband the patriarchate, and they installed a Russian metropolitan who repeated the action of Patriarch Nikon in Russia by forcing Georgia to adopt the Nikonian Reforms. Russia also forced Georgia to stop using their language in the liturgy and use Church Slavonic instead. However, Georgia's chant style managed to survive.

So does the Georgian Old-Rite church have apostolic succession? As it doesn't sound like they lost their priests?