Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Barbara, yes, there is a Georgian branch of Old Believers, and most of them are in communion with the Russian Old Believers. This is due to the fact that Georgia continued using the Old Rite all the way until the 19th century, when Russia invaded and realized that Georgia had the practices of the "Old Believer heretics".* They forced Georgia to disband the patriarchate, and they installed a Russian metropolitan who repeated the action of Patriarch Nikon in Russia by forcing Georgia to adopt the Nikonian Reforms. Russia also forced Georgia to stop using their language in the liturgy and use Church Slavonic instead. However, Georgia's chant style managed to survive.

So does the Georgian Old-Rite church have apostolic succession? As it doesn't sound like they lost their priests?

My understanding is that like the Old Believers in Russia, all the bishops went along with the Nikonian Reforms. (Well, one bishop in Russia did, but he was burned alive as a result of that). So after the reforms were implemented, the Georgian Old Believers received their Apostolic Succession from the priested Old Believers. However, no detailed information on this matter is available in English, so I could very well be wrong.

Edit: Yep, I just checked.

Justice
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:
Justice wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Barbara, yes, there is a Georgian branch of Old Believers, and most of them are in communion with the Russian Old Believers. This is due to the fact that Georgia continued using the Old Rite all the way until the 19th century, when Russia invaded and realized that Georgia had the practices of the "Old Believer heretics".* They forced Georgia to disband the patriarchate, and they installed a Russian metropolitan who repeated the action of Patriarch Nikon in Russia by forcing Georgia to adopt the Nikonian Reforms. Russia also forced Georgia to stop using their language in the liturgy and use Church Slavonic instead. However, Georgia's chant style managed to survive.

So does the Georgian Old-Rite church have apostolic succession? As it doesn't sound like they lost their priests?

My understanding is that like the Old Believers in Russia, all the bishops went along with the Nikonian Reforms. (Well, one bishop in Russia did, but he was burned alive as a result of that). So after the reforms were implemented, the Georgian Old Believers received their Apostolic Succession from the priested Old Believers. However, no detailed information on this matter is available in English, so I could very well be wrong.

Edit: Yep, I just checked.

Would that Bishop be Avvakum? who was burnt at the stake? Correct me if I'm wrong. I assume when your referring to the Priested Old Believers you meed the Popovsty who supposedly got there apostolic succession from Ambrose of Belaya Krinista a deposed Greek Orthodox Bishop who converted to the Old Believers. So technically, they don't have apostolic succession.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:
Justice wrote:

So does the Georgian Old-Rite church have apostolic succession? As it doesn't sound like they lost their priests?

My understanding is that like the Old Believers in Russia, all the bishops went along with the Nikonian Reforms. (Well, one bishop in Russia did, but he was burned alive as a result of that). So after the reforms were implemented, the Georgian Old Believers received their Apostolic Succession from the priested Old Believers. However, no detailed information on this matter is available in English, so I could very well be wrong.

Edit: Yep, I just checked.

Would that Bishop be Avvakum? who was burnt at the stake? Correct me if I'm wrong. I assume when your referring to the Priested Old Believers you meed the Popovsty who supposedly got there apostolic succession from Ambrose of Belaya Krinista a deposed Greek Orthodox Bishop who converted to the Old Believers. So technically, they don't have apostolic succession.

Nope, Avvakum was an Archpriest/Protopope. The bishop I was referring to was Bishop Pavel of Kolomna. As for Ambrose of Belaya Krinitsa, he was removed by the Ottomans, not the Church. He was still a real bishop when he converted to Old Ritualism.

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Barbara
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Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Do you know anything about Bp Paul of Kolomna, perchance ?

Now I remember that name Belaya [ White ] Krinitsa [ ?? ].
What was the story of this deposed Greek bishop Ambrose ? What brought him to the door of the Russian Old Believers ?
Why did the Ottoman administration depose him ? Usually that would have occurred because someone was denounced by the Greek Orthodox themselves. Otherwise, the Porte, as the Ottoman court was known as in Europe, did not care to interfere in internal Orthodox affairs.

Last edited by Barbara on Sun 8 October 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

This is a most interesting thread. Thank you, everyone, for your contributions.

I had no idea about the fact that Georgians were back in the Old Mode. I remember that when the Russians took over Georgia around 1810 or so, it was a sea change for Georgia in so many ways. This ancient kingdom, the second nation to convert to Christianity, became a vassal of the Tsar. All was decided by St Petersburg. While the Georgian royalty and upper nobility became social fixtures at the Court of the Tsar, they no longer held sway in their own nation.

I never thought of the situation with the Georgian Orthodox Church, though. I am glad in this case that the Russians intervened to update them ! Both on the sign of the Cross and the Liturgy in Slavonic. I wonder whether there was a reaction to this quite major reform ?

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Maria
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Maria »

Barbara wrote:

Do you know anything about Bp Paul of Kolomna, perchance ?

Now I remember that name Belaya [ White ] Krinitsa [ ?? ].
What was the story of this deposed Greek bishop Ambrose ? What brought him to the door of the Russian Old Believers ?
Why did the Ottoman administration depose him ? Usually that would have occurred because someone was denounced by the Greek Orthodox themselves. Otherwise, the Porte, as the Ottoman court was known as in Europe, did not care to interfere in internal Orthodox affairs.

No, this is not true, Barbara.

If a devout bishop arose who by his sermons and ascetic life posed a threat to Islam, the Ottoman empire was known to kill or to send such a one into exile. In fact, many of those bishops who were elected to serve as Patriarch of Constantinople, who had to get the approval of the Caliphate in order to serve this term (and still does to this day), were themselves martyred. Indeed, there are many bishops, monastics, priests, and laity who were martyred under the very oppressive Ottoman Yoke. These are called the New Martyrs under the Ottoman Yoke.

Do not forget the plight of the Orthodox Christian mothers and fathers who were forced to send their first born son, at the tender age of 4 or as soon as they were weaned, into the hands of the Ottoman who raised these boys to serve as Islamic soldiers, and to conquer more nations for Islam. Parents feared lest their own first born sons come back home as Islamic infidels to kill them. Many of these parents tried to escape Greece (or other lands in the Turkish Empire) for other nations where they could raise their sons as Christians.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/New_Martyrs#Ne ... toman_yoke

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Justice
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

Barbara wrote:

Do you know anything about Bp Paul of Kolomna, perchance ?

Now I remember that name Belaya [ White ] Krinitsa [ ?? ].
What was the story of this deposed Greek bishop Ambrose ? What brought him to the door of the Russian Old Believers ?
Why did the Ottoman administration depose him ? Perhaps he was denounced by the Greek Orthodox themselves.

Ambrose was consecrated as a bishop by Patriarch Gregory in 1835, and became an Old Believer in 1846. Though before this, he was the abbot of the Holy Trinity monastery in the island of Halki. he was eventually consecrated as a Bishop and remained a bishop in the Greek Orthodox Church for five years before being removed by Ottoman authorities.

In Vienna Conte Kolovrat and Archduke Ludwig were givin permission by Ferdinand to invite a foreign Bishop to establish his main residence in Belaya Krinitsa to provide for the Old Believers in the Empire. By this point in time, there were many Old Believers in Turkey and Europe from the persecution they faced back in Russia. Conte Kolovrat and Archduke Ludwig got in contact with Ambrose and two Russian monks named Patel and Alimpii who were also searching for a bishop to join the Old Believers.

Ambrose, Pavel, and Alimpii arrived in modern day Romania to meet with the Old Believer community. Ambrose received a very warm welcome from the community. Upon his arrival, the government had requested a report on Ambrose from the Patriarch of Constantinople the Patriarch sent back a favorable report back to the government. Thus, allowing him two establish his residence. On October 28 1846, Ambrose along with the Old Believer community celebrated the first Divine Lituragy with a Bishop since the persecution.

Ambrose was eventually exiled to Styria where he remained for fifteen years. In that time he regarded his consecration of Old Believer clergy as God's will.

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