Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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Justice
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

If we look at an icon of St Seraphim of Sarov, he is sometimes depicted with a Lestovka even though he wasn't an Old Believer. Take this icon:

Image

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

I am glad in this case that the Russians intervened to update them ! Both on the sign of the Cross and the Liturgy in Slavonic. I wonder whether there was a reaction to this quite major reform ?

I don't know why you would be glad about that. It was completely unnecessary, and it prevented the Georgians from using their own language in the liturgy (as they had done for centuries - remember, they had their own patriarch). Russia's invasion of Georgia and takeover of the Georgian Church has had negative effects that are still present today, and the two countries still have an incredibly unstable relationship.

As for the reaction, there was plenty of complaints regarding the implementation of the Nikonian Reforms in Georgia, but due to the presence of the Russian Army in the country no serious resistance was made possible.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:

If we look at an icon of St Seraphim of Sarov, he is sometimes depicted with a Lestovka even though he wasn't an Old Believer. Take this icon:

Image

Saint Seraphim of Sarov is generally regarded as having come from a Edinoverie family (a family of Old Believers who returned to the ROC, retaining the Old Rite with several conditions). Regardless, the lestovka was something that even those in the New Rite maintained for a time, but as with many things it fell out of use in the New Rite and has overtime become associated with the Old Believers.

Justice
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:
Justice wrote:

If we look at an icon of St Seraphim of Sarov, he is sometimes depicted with a Lestovka even though he wasn't an Old Believer. Take this icon:

Image

Saint Seraphim of Sarov is generally regarded as having come from a Edinoverie family (a family of Old Believers who returned to the ROC, retaining the Old Rite with several conditions). Regardless, the lestovka was something that even those in the New Rite maintained for a time, but as with many things it fell out of use in the New Rite and has overtime become associated with the Old Believers.

Thank you NCY for this new information I appreciate it.

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Maria
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Maria »

Justice,

I just moved your new post on polyphonic singing into a new thread:

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 33&t=12263

This should help get more responses.

In Christ, Maria

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Oh ! Interesting indeed. I was investigating this connection between St Seraphim and the Old Believers but didn't get far. I thought it was decided that he was anti-Old Believer, having converted some to the true Church.
But that was taken from a brief summary.

You have found this information, NCYet, that the young Prokhor grew up in a converted family which still maintained the old rite ? That is groundbreaking if so. I was trying to get a clear grasp on this topic.

So when Prokhor [ rhymes with Rocor, foreshadowing the Russian Church Abroad's future perpetual ownership of the Kursk Icon ] was healed by this Icon, he was being brought up in the Old Rite, or the aspects which were permitted to be retained by the main Church ?

While at these junctures, the use of the lestovka by which group sounds blurred, it is unusual to me that St Seraphim is always pictured with one. Isn't he the only canonized Saint thus depicted ? Why is this permitted, one wonders ?

Then the St Petersburg Holy Synod's obstinacy in refusing to grant his glorification may have been due to some whispers like this ? That's what I have wondered. Much data must have been lost during the process of inquiry, we assume, making determination of exactly the situation of Prokhor's family vis a vis the Old Belief impossible after over a century.

That icon which Justice posted above is remarkable. I like it better than any other I have seen of St Seraphim !

Last edited by Barbara on Mon 9 October 2017 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barbara
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Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Replying to Maria's post. Without looking anything up, just from memory, that system was called the Devshirme.
I don't recall that the boys were taken THAT young as 4 years old. Either way, it represented a great boost for provincial peasant families to send a son to the Ottoman Court. Some of these conscripts rose to exceedingly high places in the government, thus becoming a source of pride for their parents. I highly doubt even one family thought that their son would do such a dastardly thing. Remember that this was the Eastern Mediterranean -- not modern America where such atrocities are premeditated by demonic, psychotic children.
In those days in that world, family was sacred. No sane son would ever remotely conceive of such a heinous action. Nor did the sons usually return to their homes once taken by the Sultan's officials. Never. For once they entered the ranks of the Janissaries, this service became the youths' entire life. Many were happy to be given high ranks to which they would never have hoped to attain otherwise.
Not all fought in the Sultan's campaigns. Some who were considered not suitable were given other occupations, such as architects. The most famous of these is Mimar Sinan [ architect Sinan ], who is believed to have been either Cappodocian Greek or Albanian or Armenian. He was conscripted into the Devshirme system and after Janissary service went on to become one of the world's most extraordinary architects, influencing generations after him in various different Empires.
Sinan is most famous for having designed the Suleimaniye Mosque in Istanbul, but his work was so vast and widespread that he was a marvel of his time. Had he not been conscripted, the world would never seen such beautiful architecture.
Instead of attacking his parents, he is thought to have intervened to save their lives.

Whether or not one is interested in this brilliant career of service to one's country [ one's Empire, in this case ], one fact about Sinan is instructive.
He had to go through the military Janissary duty. Only at the age of 50, I think it was, did he even BEGIN the new career !
It was not a simple job, either, but a highly complex one building gigantic edifices which required prodigious effort to study from scratch. That, at an age that this modern Western society considers 'over the hill' ; rarely do people above 50 get hired, particularly not for entirely new trades.

Last edited by Barbara on Tue 10 October 2017 12:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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