DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether or not the Russian True Orthodox Churches teach or have condemned Name-Worshiping. It is certainly the opinion of this board that Name-Worshiping has already been condemned by both the Russian and Greek churches a century ago, but Alexander claims that the current bishops of ROAC and RTOC do not condemn it. It would be helpful to get some clarification on this matter and provide evidence on the position of those two jurisdictions. I personally have no information to offer on the matter, although I can safely say that the GOC is definitely against it.
It's interesting, Alexander, that earlier you claimed you did not know anything about this issue, but now you say you do know something about it, in particular that none of the Russian True Orthodox bishops believe name-worshiping is a heresy. I'm sure Dcn Ephrem will have some things to say about that.
It's interesting, Alexander, that earlier you claimed you did not know anything about this issue, but now you say you do know something about it, in particular that none of the Russian True Orthodox bishops believe name-worshiping is a heresy. I'm sure Dcn Ephrem will have some things to say about that.
Yes, Johnatan, I told that I do not know much about the essence of this problem and unfortunately this is True up till now. But I know the trends and opinions. I was deliberately looking for some TOC people here in Russia who are against Name-Glorifying and who can explain themselves, but I have not found any at all. Probably Dcn Ephrem will add some clarity.
But in fact I do not have a need to discuss this topic here, even the technical side. I will study it myself.
There are many other interesting topics for this cafe. For example, I was going to tell about ROCOR(V)s. I hope to do it next week in other thread. There are four ROCOR(V)s here plus one single-standing bishop, all of them are very different. And one of these four ROCOR(V)s will probably split soon, to make five of them plus a bishop.
I do not speak Russian and so I do not know many people in Russia. I only know that ROAC's position is that name-worshiping is heretical. If you are simply looking for information, the GOC has put a lot of English materials online concerning name-worshiping.
Fr. Deacon Ephrem Cummings Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church (ROAC)
I do not speak Russian and so I do not know many people in Russia. I only know that ROAC's position is that name-worshiping is heretical. If you are simply looking for information, the GOC has put a lot of English materials online concerning name-worshiping.
I speak Russian, and I know so many people here, and I studied the information about ROAC here in Russia, and I came to different conclusions about current ROAC's position.
I read in English very slowly.
Truly, there is no need to continue this conversation. Just let me know if you heard about somebody of your views in Russia.
There is too much philosophy when people talk about imyaslavie. This question is actual only in order to find out if the russian synodal decision of 1913 did condemn a heresy or did it condemn Orthodoxy. In any other context this discussion is useless, if not harmfull.
So, we are in a situation in which one calls different teaching with the same name. After studying the documents of 1908-1917 period, we can say there are 3 teaching regarding this subject:
Imyaslavie (Name-glorifying) - is the teaching which says that we glorify the name of God. It can be found in the Psalms and even in the morning and evening prayers.
Imyaborchestvo (Name-fighting) - is a extreme movement against the Imyabozhie, which says that the name of God is nothing different than any other name. I haven't seen nowadays anybody to share this teaching, that's why this term really seems to be oboslete.
Let us try to analyze documents which have been in the core of the dispute, in order to make a correct conclusion.
"When on a clear fall night I gaze upon the clear heavens, illumined by innumerable stars that send out a single light, then I say to myself: thus are the writings of the holy fathers. When on a summer's day I gaze upon the wide sea, covered with a multitude of distinct waves, driven by a single wind to a single end, a single pier, then I say to myself: such are the writings of the fathers. When I hear a well-ordered choir, in which different voices sing a single hymn in shimmering harmony, then I say to myself: such are the writings of the fathers." (St. Ignatius Brianchaninov)
There is too much philosophy when people talk about imyaslavie. This question is actual only in order to find out if the russian synodal decision of 1913 did condemn a heresy or did it condemn Orthodoxy. In any other context this discussion is useless, if not harmfull.
So, we are in a situation in which one calls different teaching with the same name. After studying the documents of 1908-1917 period, we can say there are 3 teaching regarding this subject:
Imyaslavie (Name-glorifying) - is the teaching which says that we glorify the name of God. It can be found in the Psalms and even in the morning and evening prayers.
Imyaborchestvo (Name-fighting) - is a extreme movement against the Imyabozhie, which says that the name of God is nothing different than any other name. I haven't seen nowadays anybody to share this teaching, that's why this term really seems to be oboslete.
Let us try to analyze documents which have been in the core of the dispute, in order to make a correct conclusion.
Please be careful, as I know there are problems with translations. However, my answer below is not meant as a detailed theological discussion.
Imyabozhie (Name-worshipping) is a term wrongfully used by the imyaslavie to confuse the issue. Whether this heresy is called Name-worshiping or Name-glorifying, it is the same. We can neither say that the Name of God is God in His Essence nor God in His Divine Energies. The Holy name of Jesus is not God, nor God in His Divine Energies. This name of Jesus is not divine otherwise those with the name of Jesse or Jesus (in Hispanic countries) would be dead as that would be considered blasphemous. We do not worship the name of God, but we worship and adore Christ our God and Savior. When we read that "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow," we are to bow down and worship Jesus Christ as His name represents God, but His very name is not God, nor does saying this name possess magical powers. However, if we invoke the name of Jesus in our prayers, then we are addressing God (not His name).
If we were truly concerned about the name of God, then we would not even spell out the name of God as do the Judaizers or Messianic Jews who write or type G-d, or L-rd, or use another name for Christ.
The imyaslavie or Name-Glorifying teach that the Name of God is His Divine Energy and they misappropriate the teachings of St. Gregory Palamas to validate their own errors.
Imyaborchestvo (Name-fighting) is a term used to confuse the issue and wrongfully claims that those who are teaching the truth are fighting God.
Last edited by Maria on Thu 15 May 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Editing some misspellings: Imyaslavie (I had originally left out the "I")
This is not the thread for promoting name-worshiping as a heresy or teaching, but simply to understand what the position of the Russian TO jurisdictions is on this issue.
Last edited by Maria on Thu 29 May 2014 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:replaced the word "discussing" with "promoting"
