UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY; WORLD ORTHODOXY SCHISM?

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Barbara
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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by Barbara »

d9popov, what would be the makeup of that secular organization that you described the possible new Ukrainian Autocephalous Church as being slated to be ? Can you expand on that angle more ?
In what ways will it be not traditional Orthodox ? Would it, like the so-called Autocephalous Church of Montenegro, delete Saints like St Alexander Nevsky [perceived as too Russian] from its calendar ? And what else ?

You made a great point about the TOC Bishops of Ukraine caring for BOTH groups without any personal preferences : that is the only fair way. I wish such a plan could be implemented. Your idea needs to be circulated widely.

That secularization theme of which you and some guy spoke is deeply alarming. So Ukraine is now getting WORSE than under Communism ? That's appalling. I had no idea, as I was there only a couple times not long after the Soviet Union dissolved. Then, it seemed fairly religious, comparatively, though Westernized more than Russia. It's too bad that Westernization has gone hand in hand with steering away from the Church. I guess it's the worship of business and money which takes over when a country copies the West's behavior, with worship of God fading quickly. All those beautiful Churches and Monasteries need to be filled up ; not the reverse.

Some guy, what did you find on your trip to Greece, then ? Did you uncover some nice spiritual corners, or really everything was disappointingly modern and secular ? Did you travel around or stayed in Athens ?

d9popov
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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by d9popov »

Maria wrote:

That is a great response, d9popov.

Thank you, Maria, for your kind words.

I just read Patriarch Bartholomew's speech to the Assembly of Bishops at Constantinople earlier this month. I expected it to contain a lot of self-worship, but even I was surprised. The word that came into mind was "IDOLATRY," that is SELF-IDOLATRY. He quotes scripture that refers to GOD and he says that it applies to HIM (Bartholomew and his throne). https://www.uocofusa.org/news_180901_1.html

Bartholomew is a blasphemer!

Barbara: I think that the new autocephalous Church of Ukraine will be "post-modern," which to me means that it will be based on the idea that there is no absolute truth: the idea that "my truth" and "your truth" are both valid, even if they are opposite. It will combine atheist nationalists ("Orthodox atheists"), ecumenists, probably a few uniates, anti-ecumenists, and some genuinely pious people who not know better. It will be the child of Petro Poroshenko, who desperately wants to increase his popularity by creating a united national Church. But there will be schisms and dissensions. The "loyalty" statement that government officials are allegedly asking priests to sign already admits that the new church will contribute to ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue. We all now that, in practice, that does not mean less conflict and more peace, but more watering down of Orthodox truth and (sometimes) a toleration for Islamic expansion in the West. In practice, Pope Francis is a cheerleader for Islamic expansion into the west through the migrant crisis. If Ukraine does join the EU, it may face pressure to admit non-Christian migrants, and Ukraine may change religiously and demographically like France and the UK are. Ecumenism is a hodge-podge of contradictory truth claims by those who do not really believe in Truth. The new autocephalous church will not have a common faith. Some may try to throw out "Muscovite" saints, but others will retain them. What will unite the new church is Ukrainian nationalism and theological/moral relativism. It pains me to write that. I wish that they could show the world that one can be Orthodox and pious without Moscow-type authoritarianism. But I see no signs of a great movement back to traditional Orthodox dogma and piety. I hope I am proved wrong in my fears.

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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by d9popov »

Justice wrote:

I would like to see sources regarding this matter.

According to Joseph Suaiden's book Lux Veritatis: A Short History of the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Western Europe and the America's, Often Referred to as the Synod of Milan, 2nd ed. (Deipara Press, 2009), p. 46, the three Portuguese bishops left the True Orthodox Archbishop Auxentius in 1990 and joined World Orthodoxy, specifically the Polish Orthodox Church.

Also according to Suaiden (p. 47), the Milan synod had already entered into communion with Ukrainian Metropolitan Mstyslav Skrypnyk in 1989.

However, Archbishop Auxentius had already removed the Portuguese and Milan bishops in Protocol Number 2671, dated November 23, 1988, see https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ort ... sages/8805

Thus, the Portuguese and Milan bishops stopped being affiliated with their True Orthodox synod in 1988 and they officially joined World Orthodoxy in 1989 and 1990 respectively. Mstyslav was loosely affiliated with Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios of Constantonople and later Patriarch Bartholomew (see picture of Mstyslav and Bartholomew together at https://orthodoxwiki.org/File:Bartolomeo.jpg

These are the basic facts that are documented. Suaiden did not have any evidence for his claim that Metropolitan Evloghios liturgized with Auxentios up until his death in 1994. There are numerous pictures of Auxentios in his final six years and pictures of his funeral. Evloghios is not in these pictures, but only in older ones. These are the facts.

Later, it was claimed that Evloghios was in communion with Archbishop Maximos (Vallianatos) of Athens who was Auxentios's successor for a short time, but was deposed by his own synod (all of the other bishops of the synod) for joining with the new calendarist Demetrios Bifis of Alexandrian origin. Later, Evloghios entered into communion with Metropolitan Angelos of Avlona (after Angelos separated from the Cyprian synod and then the Lamian/Makarios synod). That is the basic chronology on that.

Lastly, Evloghios reaffirmed his commitment to ecumenism and to full communion with the monophysite churches in his encyclical of March 1, 2005. See https://web.archive.org/web/20160317002 ... ites.shtml

There should be nothing controversial about these facts, because they are all well-documented and pretty much acknowledged by everyone. I have only cited a fraction of the documentation that one can find that establishes these facts.

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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by Justice »

Thank you for your response but shouldn't this be in polemics?

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Barbara
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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by Barbara »

d9popov, I saw your excellent, informative reply but working hard on another thread the last few days.

That is outrageous about Bartholomew ! Has anyone else noticed that stroke of egomania ?- !
Is it unique, or have been there been other instances in his speeches ? In short, is he getting worse ? Or perhaps more bold in letting a mask slip without undue worry, confident in his supreme power ?

About this new post-modern 'church', that's sinister that the priests are being forced to sign oaths of loyalty to the state. That's worse than the so-called Holy Synod in Russia cynically created by Peter I to uproot the real Moscow Patriarchate ; the idea was to have complete secular control over the Church. The head of that so-called Synod was always a layman...!

So this new institution sounds a little on that model from what I understand so far.

I am not keeping up with Ukrainian politics, but is there any chance Poroshenko will be defeated ? He must think he's going to rule forever to be setting up a compliant, subservient body like you described to bolster his power.

Do you have any idea what size this new group would be ? A few million only ?

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Maria
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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY -- SCHISM?

Post by Maria »

Justice wrote:

Thank you for your response but shouldn't this be in polemics?

Thank you, Justice, for pointing this out.

I have moved this thread into Intra-TOC discussions.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

d9popov
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Re: UKRAINE AUTOCEPHALY; WORLD ORTHODOXY SCHISM?

Post by d9popov »

Press reports indicate that Poroshenko is afraid that he will lose the presidency to a more Moscow-friendly candidate in 2019. He wants a united, independent Church to increase his popularity this year. If I was forced to predict, I would say that Poroshenko and Constantinople together will create a Ukrainian Autocephalous Patriarchate of Kiev this year or next that unites almost all of the current Kiev Patriarchate and current Autocephalous Church, with a chunk of the Moscow parishes joining at some point. The MP will maintain a presence, especially in eastern Ukraine. There will be conflicts over church property, but many parishes will vote, under pressure, to join the new church. The Moscow Patriarchate could excommunicate Constantinople, but they may patch things up like they did after the Estonia conflict. Putin may have the power to tell the MP bishops what he wants them to do (split from Constantinople or not), since those bishops are not used to resisting Putin. Putin may decrease his influence if he pushes a major schism in "World Orthodoxy," but I do not know if he realizes that. He has already lost Ukraine and Georgia,in part due to his own aggressive actions.

On another note, Pope Francis just became a "Sergianist" of a sort by agreeing with the ant-Christian Beijing regime to appoint bishops jointly; bishops acceptable to both the Communists and the pope. A total sell out to Communist party-dictatorship by this evil pope.

All of these open agendas will have the effect of further secularizing these churches and our cultures. Those who believe in traditional morality will be fewer and fewer. Our children will be ostracized. I pray that Ukraine experiences a major revival of traditional Orthodox piety, but I see no evidence of that

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